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  #41  
Old 5th June 2019, 14:07
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

A very special thanks to Michael "Nokose" Barrentine for this outstanding thread.

At last we are back to studying the history of aerial combat in a way that goes beyond worshipping numbers written next to men's names
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  #42  
Old 5th June 2019, 14:38
Peter Peter is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Thank you for a very interesting thread!


Peter
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  #43  
Old 5th June 2019, 14:42
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Some time ago reduced losses of both parties (including damaged) for the first half of August, 1942 (it generally fights of Rzhev-Zubtsov):
Day - USSR/Germans
1 - 29 / 13 ______ 8 - 18 / 9
2 - 37 / 12 ______ 9 - 37 / 12
3 - 15 / 8 ______ 10 - 34 / 30
4 - 39 / 7 ______ 11 - 13 / 6
5 - 49 / 4 ______ 12 - 7 / 3
6 - 24 / 7 ______ 13 - 12 / 26
7 - 23 / 9 ______ 14 - 12 / 9
TOTAL: 350 / 155 - average per day 25 / 11.1 (medium 2.3 vs 1)
But many German losses partial and at the airport, so really find the aircraft about 5-7 vs 1
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  #44  
Old 5th June 2019, 20:33
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Nokose Nokose is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirche View Post
At this time of the 3 VA in the air, there was only one PE-2 (pilot Frolov, 527 BAP), which was doing reconnaissance on the route Belyij-Dukhovshchina-Sychevka-Staritsa - 10.10-13.25. The enemy fighters not seen.
1 VA - 204 BAD did not participate.
10 ORAP and 2 DRAP - no loss.

5 GIAP in this time also not was in the air.
But there is a report which most likely relates to one of the casualties of the fighters of JG51 in the day (Georg Seelmann ?):
210 IAD per period 10.30-11.30 - 6 Yak-1 with bombs (leading major Timofey Kobyilochniy, 163 IAP) - cover Il-2 - bombing of German warehouses in Monchalovo. In the area of Pochigaevo met 2 Bf-109f. Major Kobyilochniy attacked wingman's Bf-109 - the attack is seen, the plane went to the right. Kobyilochniy second attack came at a distance of 40 m to the second Bf-109f. With the first shooting lit it - the plane caught fire, the German pilot jumped out with a parachute and went down in the area of Pochigaevo.
http://etomesto.com/map-atlas_osteur...47&y=56.287416
Kirche, Did you mean the entire day or just this time period? Even though I did not find them mentioned in the reports, I did find the following for the 5 GIAP on the 3 August 1942:
Guards Mayor Boris Zhurin 5 GIAP while flying a LaGG-3 claimed a Me-109 (5) at Martyukovo. (His last victory claim)

Guards Mladshiy Leytenant Aleksey Luk’yanov 5 GIAP flying a LaGG-3 went missing in action in the areas of Novoye-Semenovskoye, Polunino, Vydrino, Starshevtsy.
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  #45  
Old 6th June 2019, 13:25
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Quote:
Originally Posted by kirche View Post
Stig , August 3rd isn't the busiest day... 1, 2, 4, 5, 9, 10 Aug are the busy days.
Best regards,
Kirill
Thanks Kirill

The problem is, however, I don't know anything about most of them and can only look at what Michael so far has written. And to me the 3rd clearly looks more "busy" than the 9th, since not only claims need to be looked at, but the number of missions as well.

Interesting statistics you provided as well! Thanks for that.

Cheers
Stig
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  #46  
Old 6th June 2019, 14:27
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Kirche, Did you mean the entire day or just this time period?
5 GIAP on the 3 August 1942:
Guards Mayor Boris Zhurin 5 GIAP while flying a LaGG-3 claimed a Me-109 (5) at Martyukovo. (His last victory claim)

Guards Mladshiy Leytenant Aleksey Luk’yanov 5 GIAP flying a LaGG-3 went missing in action in the areas of Novoye-Semenovskoye, Polunino, Vydrino, Starshevtsy.
Michael,
I told, that in 10.36 (11.36 Moscow time) in the air not was aircraft 5 GvIAP:
4.20-5.35 - 5 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Stlt. Ibragim Bikmuhametov) - no fight;
5.10-6.20 - 6 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Cpt. Ivan Laveykin) - dogfight with 4 Bf-109 in Bahmatovо-Mishino at the height of 2000-2500. Shot downed 1 Bf-109 - attacked from the side-rear and top from a distance of 100-150 m - fell 2-3 km North of Gubino. The second Bf-109 attacked head-on from a distance of 200 m damaged - with a sharp decline and smoke went to Rzhev. The third Bf-109 attacked from above and from the side from a distance of 50-100 m damaged - with a decrease went to Rzhev. 1 LaGG-3 damaged in battle - forced landing in the Kurovo area (Anufriev ? - area Pavlovo?). No names
6.30-7.35 - 5 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Stlt. Piotr Grechnev) - in the area of Deshevka at an altitude of 1000 seen 2 Ju-87 and 1 Ju-88. Seeing the fighters German planes with a decrease in went to Rzhev.
11.45-12.45 - 5 LaGG-3 (leading gw.Stlt. Piotr Grechnev) - in 12.00 4 LaGG-3 bombed Startsevo with heights 2000-1200 in dive (8 AO-25). At 12.30 at an altitude of 2000 dogfight 5 LaGG-3 vs 4 Bf-109 - on bends on both sides. 1 Bf-109 shot down by Grechnev (rear-side attack from a distance of 50-100 m). The enemy aircraft fell near Timofeevo, the remaining Bf-109 came out of the battle with the climb in the direction of Rzhev. Downed 1 LaGG-3 (Lavrenko) - on surveillance crews he jumped out on parachute jump in area Deshevka (Lavrenko 04.08.1942 came back and reported that: during a battle with 4 Bf-109F he rammed one Bf-109F. Enemy aircraft dropped 3 km East Zalkovo. The plane Lavrenko lost control - he jumped with a parachute, the plane crashed in the area Zalkovo. The fact of the RAM is confirmed by ground troops and other pilots from that battle.)
In this battle, could shoot down Leutnant Johann-Gottlieb Engel, only if he continued the flight for another hour and Zal'kovo and Deshevka is North of Rzhev (not Zubtsov, not 47822).
13.18-14.10 - 3 LaGG-3 - In the area of the troops covering fought (Mishino-Zybino) with several Bf-109 - the enemy attacked in pairs, and sought to divert 3 LaGG-3 in the direction from cover. LaGG-3's didn't pursue them. In the area of Borisovo-Zybino at an altitude of 200 fought with 7 Ju-88, 4 Bf-109 - as a result of battle damaged 1 Bf-109f, which with the decrease and the black smoke went to Rzhev. 1 LaGG-3 damaged - put the plane on the airfield Dary.
14.25-15.30 - 4 LaGG-3 - from the height of 1800-1500 bombing from the planning of the convoy in the area of Zhukovo (8 AO-25, destroyed: 1-2 cars, 2-3 carts)
15.00-16.00 - 4 LaGG-3 - was dive bombed enemy troops in the area Pleshevo (8 AO-25, result not seen)
17.35-18.45 - 9 LaGG-3 - was bombed enemy troops in the area Svinino (6 AO-25, explosions of bombs among the enemy trenches)
20.10-21.10 - 5 LaGG-3 - was dive bombed enemy troops in the area Startsevo (10 AO-25, explosions of bombs among the enemy trenches).
In the area of Chentsovo 20.35 at an altitude of 1500 m 8 Hurricane's from behind attacked 5 LaGG-3 - gave a burst of machine guns. Pilot Lukyanov after the attack 8 Hurricane's went to their territory with a decrease.
(157 IAP 256 IAD - 20.10-21.10 - 6 Hurricane's (Lt Ivan Ovcharenko) - support Il-2 - when approaching the target were attacked 6 LaGG-3 - after Ovcharenko came close LaGG-3 stopped the attack.)

Maybe I missed something... Don't know what the flight was lost Popkov, but he came back. Zhurin could bring down or damage the plane in 5.10-6.20 ?
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  #47  
Old 6th June 2019, 14:55
kirche kirche is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik View Post
The problem is, however, I don't know anything about most of them and can only look at what Michael so far has written. And to me the 3rd clearly looks more "busy" than the 9th, since not only claims need to be looked at, but the number of missions as well.
Stig,
I have not cited the statistics of claims - this is the data of the GKL and the Soviet operational documents 1 VA and 3 VA. August 3 was not the most intense, because 1 VA that day had a low activity - they were preparing for August 4 (the first day of the offensive Pogorelo-Gorodishche operation). Michael has not yet looked at the documents 1 VA - activity in the period 4-10 August is much higher - it's fights East, South-East of Zubtsov.
Activity 3 VA these days below, as the offensive in the North-West of Rzhev by August 3 as a whole choked and activity there will be in the second half of the month and in early September, when the second phase of the offensive. Without the analysis of actions 1 VA to speak about the level of tension in the area is not correct.
Best regards,
Kirill
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  #48  
Old 1st September 2019, 22:33
robinoc robinoc is offline
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Michael (Nokose) was kind enough to allow the publication and research of his and Kirill Chekmarev work on the air war above Rzhev - Zubstov on the JG 54 website that previously appeared in this thread.

https://www.jg54greenheart.com/the-a...eptember-1942/
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  #49  
Old 4th September 2019, 21:06
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Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

The article posted on Bob’s JG 54 site contains information not originally listed in this thread here on 12 O’Clock and even though I have no more to add there will probably be more going there. Kirche has enough information for adding another day in the future concerning the 7 August 1942. When that occurs we will let you know here.
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