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  #11  
Old 28th March 2016, 10:37
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
In the Combined Services Detailed Interrogation Centre report "The History of FAG 122 in the Mediterranean"
Hi Nick

does that report cover 1941/42?

All the best

Andreas
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  #12  
Old 28th March 2016, 11:33
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

While I also would like to see Baumbach's aircraft Bronc I still can't let the general topic go.

First off all I don't think we should approach Luftwaffe by looking at how RAF did it, except from perhaps a very general view.

Secondly we need to look at the 'happy' years as it is sometimes called from a German point of view, and not the defensive years. During 1940-41 and possibly a large part of 1942 as well, I think the Germans (read Luftwaffe and not Navy) were quite satisfied with how their ocean warfare was going. I don't agree with them feeling they had insufficient anti-shipping forces. If the existing Luftwaffe units felt anything it must have been they had not quite the right tools for doing a 100% adequate job. But they were quite good at adapting their aircraft to perform outside the original design parameters.

So again I don't understand the wisdom of using long range (rebuilt) Ju 88 D for anti shipping purposes. Cameras are heavy enough and on top having bombs onboard every mission to 'just-in-case-we-see-some vessels-let's-bomb-them' would inevitable deplore them of well needed range as well.
Wasn't the whole wisdom with the D-model to use the bomb bay for fuel?

I tried to find more info on Orlowski but can't find much on the 'net'. So far no one has answered the question, did Orlowski score against those 15 vessels shown on the fin of his Ju 88 D? Orlowski flew reportedly more than 1000 missions, which in itself would entitle him to the RK. If he had scored against 15 vessels as well, I am surprised he did not get a higher award and indeed was transferred to a dedicated anti-shipping unit.
My belief is, until someone can proof otherwise, that the vessels we see on the fin of the particular aircraft under discussion was a remnant from its 'A-period'. Since I don't have files showing 'ship-aces' I have no idea if 15 vessels in fact was something many pilots claimed or if they must belong to a very good one. My feeling is the latter. Baumbach's? No idea....

Cheers
Stig
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  #13  
Old 29th March 2016, 14:34
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

The best German book on bomber aces "Das waren die deutschen Kampfflieger-Asse 1939-1945" by Georg Brütting features but one Baumbach photo with a Ju 88 in the background without visible tailplane.
It says "...when Baumbach had sunk 300.000 tons of shipping, he received the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves and Swords as 16th soldier of the Wehrmacht on 18Aug1942..."
However it does not specify the number of sunk vessels.

Cheers,

Michael
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  #14  
Old 11th April 2016, 19:49
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Like with most LW flying units and pilots, little is known or has been published about 1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 120 to this day.

The Ju 88D-1 WNr. 1067 A6+HH had for many years been believed to be the machine of Werner Baumbach, although he flew with KG 30 whose unit code was ‘4D’. A Staffel member from 1.(F)/Aufkl.Gr. 120 insists that this was the ‘regular’ aircraft of Stkp. u. Hptm. Helmuth Orlowski (RK 19-Sep-43), and his observer, Oblt. Fritz Heidenreich (RK 3-Jun-41). The scoreboard’s painter was named Klinkohr and it is assumed that the machine was flown by several crews, the tally representing the successes achieved by the aircraft rather than one individual. Note that the latest ‘kill’ is dated 31-Oct-41. Presumably the photos of this machine were taken at Stavanger-Sola on or shortly after this date. This machine was destroyed during an RAF bombing raid at Stavenger-Forus on 7-Jan-42. Orlowski would later lead Aufkl.Gr. 122. He and his crew were reported as MIA on 8-Nov-43 after being shot down by enemy fighters NE of Pescara, Italy. Major Orlowski was flying a Ju 88D-1 WNr. 430 593 4U+UH at the time. Hptm. Heidenreich was reported MIA on 30-May-44 in Ju 188F-1 WNr. 280 216 A6+RH, when he and his crew failed to return from a reconnaissance sortie to the Royal Navy anchorage at Scapa Flow. At the time he was Stkp. of the 1.(F)/120. Meyer/Stipdonk, Von der Fliegerschule zum Einsatzverband, p. 81; Tank Magazine, Luftwaffe Warbirds Photo Album, III, p. 106, photos of starboard side; Luftwaffe Aces of WW-II (1989), p. 134 photo of port side; IWM/PRO, LW Loss Reports, VII & XXIII; de Zeng research.

Last edited by Jim P.; 11th April 2016 at 19:51. Reason: clarity
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  #15  
Old 11th April 2016, 21:15
Broncazonk Broncazonk is offline
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Great post Jim P!

So where are the photos of Werner Baumbach's KG 30, unit coded ‘4D’ aircraft?

Nobody ever took a picture of Baumbach's plane??

Bronc
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  #16  
Old 11th April 2016, 21:59
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Below are the photos I have collected that show Werner Baumbach and a Ju88. There is nothing in the photos that confirms that they are Ju88s that Baumbach flew. Only one shows a code, an early Ju88 with the code ??+FN or ??+FM which appears to have black out paint applied. There are other blacked out Ju88s in the photos below which could be the same aircraft, but again nothing to confirm. The others appear to be later versions. One might presume that the crew shots would have been taken in front of their assigned aircraft, but that is not confirmed either... At least one crew member remains consistent in the photos.

Attachment 13389 Attachment 13390 Attachment 13391 Attachment 13392 events-second-world-war-wwii-aerial-warfare-persons-oberleutnant-first-BBNEX0.jpg werner-baumbach-c46d1d.jpg
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Last edited by Clint Mitchell; 12th October 2019 at 15:10.
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  #17  
Old 11th April 2016, 22:01
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Here are the other three:

werner-baumbach-c46d24.jpg ww2-aerial-warfare-against-england-1940-B3EH12.jpg werner-baumbach.jpg
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  #18  
Old 11th April 2016, 22:26
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

The aircraft possibly coded 4D+FN would fit nicely with the earlier period for when he was with 5./KG30 from 01.01.40. Unless anyone else knows any different?
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Last edited by Clint Mitchell; 11th April 2016 at 22:36. Reason: Typo
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  #19  
Old 11th April 2016, 22:49
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Clint, presume you meant code '4D+FN'?

Knusel/Michael, while the Brütting book is a nice book to have in one's library, it has been superseded by a two-volume set by Jochen Kaiser entitled "Die Ritterkreuztrager der Kampfflieger" published on 2011 by Luftfahrtverlag Start - the same publisher as the LW in Focus series.
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  #20  
Old 11th April 2016, 22:58
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Re: Werner Baumbach ship destroyer

Yes Jim, thanks. Corrected earlier.
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