Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 23rd December 2018, 12:53
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 945
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Franek

There is no proof that Lang made false claims, we would need a sworn statement from his rottenflieger for that, and that would incriminate himself.

Can't remember the title, but TOCH covered Lang before on this subject. His claims were cross-matched against Russian losses ………...assuming this is a complete listing of Russian losses then I do remember his seventeen claims for 3rd November 1943 were really heavily checked.

What we established was that according to Horbert Hannig's publication that Lang have planned-out the day, almost like it was an attempted on the record, he planned to fly a certain number of sorties, each time with a single rottenflieger, Lang claimed heavily, but so would his rottenflieger, actually by memory on one sortie not a single Sowiet aircraft fell.

Foremost of his rottenflieger was Reinhold Hoffmann, Hoffmann was only making spectacular claims whilst witnessing Lang's spectacular claims, their partnership lasted only a few weeks, prior to this both, but especially Hoffmann showed no outstanding abilities in claiming Sowiet aircraft. When they both transfere to 9./JG54 from 5./JG54 again they revert to unspectacular claiming, actually I would say they didn't actually fly together at this time.

Nick states that Lang continues his overclaiming with St.II./JG26, another of his rottenflieger follows him there this is Alfred Gross who also was claiming with Lang at 5./JG54...……….but never in the way Hoffmann did. Anyway one would suspect Gross was Lang's enabler at St.II./JG26, but I don't think this is the case, it would appear again that they didn't actually fly together much, in fact 3rd September 1944 is the only proven day. Therefore there must be another explanation why Nick cannot match Lang's claims in the West with Allied losses, this could be that he doesn't have details of ALL the Allied losses, but actually whereas the Sowiets might be incomplete actually the Allied losses we do actually know. There is another possibility, assuming Nick is correct, and personally I think he is, then it's worth mentioning that those who have deemed the worst over-claimers seem to do this as Kommandeur, now with Erich Rudorffer his claims are linked with Kurt Tangermann, again here Tangermann does nothing before or after his time with Rudorffer, but I don't know but is it possible that a Kommandeur[ATTACH]AA.Tangermann.Kurt~fraudulent claims.xls[/ATTACH]r could self certificate claims(Nowotny's claims the same as Kommandeur), there is absolutely no connection between anybody within Stab.II./JG26 and Lang! Only other thing I can suggest is that Gross and Lang did fly together, but JG26 being a bit more scrutinising that they claimed together but on separate days as to remove suspicion!

Anyway havn't finished my Lang witness listing yet, but I'll leave you with Rudorffer's, on days where he makes a single claim nobody else makes a claim, in my opinion he was flying without Tangermann(Broch maybe)and the claim was genuine, anyway whatever you think there is a definite pattern that appears with Lang, Nowotny and Rudorffer.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Attached Files
File Type: xls AA.Rudorffer.Erich~fraudulent claims.xls (80.0 KB, 54 views)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 24th December 2018, 11:53
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 186
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
Can't remember the title, but TOCH covered Lang before on this subject. His claims were cross-matched against Russian losses
Hello and Merry Christmas, Johannes!

The thread in question was started by Evgeny Velichko, who is writing an article about Emil Lang - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=51703

Kind regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 24th December 2018, 12:24
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 945
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Merry Christmas to you to Dan, and thanks for the information.

According to the Norbert Hannig publication Lang did indeed plan his sorties on 3rd November 1943(Seventeen in a day) according to Hannig two war reporters had turned-up to film the days action. Now with regards to the accuracy of Hannig's recollection of the day we can judge this against Lang's claims, but Hannig stated that against his earlier statements over who was flying that day, the first sortie was flown with Peschke, the second with Gross, the third with Gross and the fourth with Hoffmann. Hannig also states that remaining pilots on the ground witnessed Lang shooting down two Jak-7's on his third sortie.

I have been looking hard at the claimers with 5./JG 54 and would say that Hannig was not involved in any of Lang's schemes(and oblivious to them?), even Gross doesn't seem obvious. Maximilian Stotz flew with this Staffel in early 1943, TOCH has discussed his overclaiming also in detail, personally I put it down to the arrival of their new Kommandeur Hans Hahn, again just a short period of spectacular claiming, then upon Hahn's loss Stotz's claims return to a level matching other staffel members, and again I can confirm that after the short period of spectacular claims by Lang and Hoffmann things return to normal once they seem not to be flying with each other anymore.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 24th December 2018, 13:41
Snautzer's Avatar
Snautzer Snautzer is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,427
Snautzer is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Would be interesting to see if the soviet airforce were strengthened or had new types at their disposal at the periods of the lesser scores. If only to rule that out.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 24th December 2018, 15:05
Dan History Dan History is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 186
Dan History is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snautzer View Post
Would be interesting to see if the soviet airforce were strengthened or had new types
Looking at claims by Tanzer from JFV Teil 9/II, the chief pattern is that aces made numerous claims on the same days when their units were heavily engaged:

2 August 1942 - Tanzer's first victory - one of three for 12./JG 51 and a total of 12 for IV./JG 51

5 August - his second - 12./JG 51 - five, IV./JG 51 - ten

24 August - his third - the only one for 12./JG 51, IV./JG 51 - four

3 December - his fourth - 12./JG 51 - four, IV./JG 51 - eight

8 December - victories 5 and 6 - 12./JG 51 - five, IV./JG 51 - eight

9 December - his seventh - 12./JG 51 - all three that day

16 December - victories 8 to 11 - 12./JG 51 - 15, IV./JG 51 - 22

5 January - victories 12 and 13 - 12./JG 51 - three, IV./JG 51 - five

6 January - victories 14 to 17 - 12./JG 51 - 11, IV./JG 51 - 16

7 January - victory 18 - 12./JG 51 - two, IV./JG 51 - three

12 January - victory 19 - only one that day

15 January - victory 20 - 12./JG 51 - two, IV./JG 51 - four

16 January - victories 21 to 23 - 12./JG 51 - six, IV./JG 51 - eight

26 January - victory 24 - 12./JG 51 - two, IV./JG 51 - three

Insofar as it is possible to propose patterns on the basis of this limited summary, it appears that once a pilot became more experienced, he would play a greater role in large air battles and make more claims. After that, it is possible that such pilots were assigned to fly more sweep missions, in which they could make additional claims. It would be reasonable to disguise excessive claims by a single pilot or even a group by making them on a day when many air combat took place, helping to avoid suspicion.

Kind regards,

Dan
__________________
My research paper - How were German air force resources distributed between different fronts in the years 1941 to 1943 - http://www.ww2.dk/Luftwaffe Research.html
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 24th December 2018, 16:29
Snautzer's Avatar
Snautzer Snautzer is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 3,427
Snautzer is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Nice, but i ment looking trough soviet eyes. Did they strengten their airpower at those times or/and were there better/more expierienced pilots/units that could make the lesser tally explainable.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 24th December 2018, 18:13
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 775
Nick Hector is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi all, here is what I can turn up for Eder's opponents and victims.
If anyone can update or correct, I'd be very grateful

Georg-Peter Eder

22.6.41/0923
I-16 "Rata"
MiGs of 126 IAP? They lost pilots Grigorii Ivanovich Alaev, Panfilov and Viktor Ivanovich Ushakov. 122 IAP lost Boris Vasilyevich Aganin KIA

13.7.41/1007
DB-3
VVS Western Front. Day's DB-3 losses include one from 207 DBAP, gunner was Matvei Aleksandrovich Badykov KIA

13.7.41/1023
I-16 "Rata"
Day's I-16 losses include Valentin Vasilevich Bobkov of 88 IAP, WIA flying from Bukhonki and Starshiy Politruk Pyotr Filippovich Sklyarov of 1 AE, 43 IAP KIA trying to land a damaged I-16 back at base

14.7.41/1116
DB-3
207 DBAP suffered at least 3 losses this date, crews of Lt. Viktor Dmitrievich Khominskij, Lt. Ivan Filippovich Erenkov (AE CO) and Lt. Pyotr Stepanovich Borodaenko. 96 DBAP suffered a loss as well, gunner Konstantin Vasilyevich Ferchuk KIA

24.7.41
Pe-2
411 BAP, OSNAZ. Crew details pending

26.7.41/1843
Pe-2
50 SBAP (one source says 410 SBAP). Entire Eskadrilya (seven aircraft in this instance) wiped out. Six shot down immediately, seventh crashed on landing back at base (underclaiming)

30.12.42/1155
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 14W/4857, western front @ 5000m
There were at least 9 claims all up
Overclaiming, only 3 losses: B-17F-5-DL 42-2975 of 423rd BS, 306th BG. Capt. John M Brady and crew all KIA except one man POW (first Douglas built B-17 to be lost); B-17F-30-BO 42-5078 of 366th BS, 305th BG, 1/Lt. Floyd E Love and crew all KIA and B-17F-10-BO 41-24449/KY-C or LL-B "Short Snorter" of 401st BS, 91st BG, 1/Lt. William D Bloodgood and crew all KIA

3.1.43/1135
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 14 West N/3884 @ 5500m
Those lost to fighters over the sea include B-17F-20-BO 41-24517/GN-O "Kali" of 427th BS, 303rd BG, 1/Lt. William H Goetz and crew all KIA; B-17F-27-BO 41-24608/BN-S "Yehudi" of "Yahoodi" of 359th BS, 303rd BG, 1/Lt. Frank A Saunders and one other POW, remaining 8 crewmen all KIA; B-17F-20-BO 41-24526/VK-J "Leaping Liz" of 358th BS, 303rd BG, 1/Lt. James B Clark and crew all KIA; B-17F-5-BO 41-24470/WW- "Sons of Fury" of 369th BS, 306th BG, 1/Lt. Charles W B Cranmer and crew all KIA

23.1.43/1355
B-17F-25 or 27-BO Flying Fortress
PQ 14 West N/3978 @ 6000m
303rd BG, 3 losses to fighters: 41-24580/VK-C "Hellcat" (often given as "Hellcat Agnes", aka "Monkey Business" of 358th BS, 1/Lt. Oran T Connor and 7 others POW, remaining 2 crewmen both evaded capture; 41-24584/GN-Q "Susfu" of 427th BS, 1/Lt. Harry A Robey Jr and one other KIA, 6 POW and 2 evaded capture and B-17F-27-BO 41-24603/BN-Y "Green Hornet" of 359th BS, 1/Lt. Ellis J Sanderson and 4 others POW, 4 evaded capture and 1 KIA
(versus 4 claims and 1 “eV”)

13.2.43/0957
Spitfire
into sea N of Boulogne (PQ 1127/05) @ 1800m
Possibly 610 "County of Chester" sqn: Mk V EN896 of F/O J T Skibinski (Polish), evaded and awarded an MBE

28.2.43/1420
Spitfire (PR IV?)
15km E of Plouha
Was this AB128 of 543 sqn?

8.3.43/1402
Spitfire VB
Le Petite-Quevilly (near Sotteville) @ 6000m
AR547 of 313 sqn. F/L Benignus Stefan KIA

12.3.43/1305
Spitfire IX
PQ 0174/05 Ost @ 7000m
340 sqn. Only BS548/GW-B of Capt. O Massart was damaged
Lt. Julius-Friedrich Paulus claimed as well

28.3.43/1305
B-17F-60-BO Flying Fortress
PQ 1887/05 Ost @ 6500m
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Overclaiming, only loss was 42-29537/DF-L of 324th BS, 91st BG. 1/Lt. John A Coen and crew all KIA (attributed to Eder). 9 Others damaged

13.5.43/1635
P-47 Thunderbolt
PQ 1139/05 Ost @ 3000m
Likely a misidentified Spitfire, no P-47 losses listed for this date

29.5.43/1746
B-17F-20-DL Flying Fortress
PQ 3075/15 West @ 5000m
Very likely claimed against 42-3042/AW- of 337th BS, 96th BG. 1/Lt. Jack L McMath and six others all KIA, remaining three crewmen all POW. Last seen around this time. Attributed to Fw190s
Also claimed by Ofw. Herbert Hoenicke

26.6.43/1802
Spitfire VB
PQ 0175/05 Ost @ 5000m
EP413 of 118 sqn. P/O S A Jones baled out and rescued

29.6.43/2039
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 0168/05 Ost @ 7000m
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Overclaiming, no B-17s lost this date

4.7.43/1232
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ1951/05 Ost @ 7000m
Overclaiming - actual losses were 8 shot down, 55 damaged. Only loss not otherwise accounted for was B-17F-80-BO 42-29967/PY- of 327th BS, 92nd BG. Lt. John J Campbell and crew all POW.

10.7.43/0828
B-17F Flying Fortress
PQ 0186/05 Ost Channel Front
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Only loss not otherwise accounted for was B-17F-85-BO 42-30050/LN- "Judy D" of 350th BS, 100th BG. 1/Lt. Charles L Duncan and 7 others POW, remaining two crewmen evaded (to fighters over the channel)

14.7.43/0752
B-17F-20-DL Flying Fortress
PQ 1077/05 Ost @ 8000m
Said to be 42-3049 "Windy City Challenger" of 422nd BS, 305th BG. Lt. John H Perkins Jnr and 6 others KIA and 4 POW (also attributed to von Lubich)

Unconfirmed claim
14.7.43/0815
B-17F-20-DL Flying Fortress eV
1-2km W of Goussainville (Dreux) @ 8000m
Said to be 42-3071/QE- of 331st BS, 94th BG. 1/Lt. Floyd B Watts and 5 others evaded capture, 2 crewmen KIA and 2 POW
(credited to Fw. Wilhelm Flegel von Farnholz)

16.7.43/2025
Spitfire
PQ 1172/Ost @ 9000m
11 Group. Overclaiming, no losses

30.7.43/1050
P-47 Thunderbolt
PQ 3225/05 Ost @ 6000m
Possibly a claim for P-47C-2-RE 41-6209/LM-C of 62nd FS, 56th FG. Lt. Robert Stover KIA (baled out of Felixstowe, not recovered in time)

30.7.43/1130
B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
PQ 3211/05 Ost @ 6000m
Definitely damaged was B-17F-20-DL 42-3046 of 351st BG, crashlanded at Woodbridge. Also possibly claimed as a HSS were B-17F-70-BO 42-29738/PU-I "Upstairs Maid" of 360th BS, 303rd BG. Crew of 1/Lt. Robert W Cogswell all returned. Fighters knocked out 2 engines and crew ditched 22 miles off Felixstowe; B-17F-90-BO 42-30183/BX- "Dry Run II" of 338th BS, 96th BG. Crew of Lt. Andrew W Miracle all returned. B-17F-90-BO 42-30157/OR-P "Hells Belle" of 323rd BS, 91st BG. 2/Lt. Donald S Van Der Heyde and crew all returned. Severely battle damaged and written off

8.4.44/1351
B-24 Liberator
SW of Salzwedel (PQ 05 Ost S EB/FB) @ 7000m
44th BG, 5 lost near Salzwedel and 453rd BG lost some in the area as well. Includes: B-24J-60-CO 42-99996/QK- of 66th BS, 2/Lt. William M Richardson and crew all KIA. 732nd BS lost B-24H-5-DT 41-28650/E3- of 1/Lt. James K Bingaman KIA, rest of crew all POW (was carrying 12 crew in total), 735th BS lost B-24H-10-CF 42-64453/H6- of 1/Lt. Jay Wells and crew all KIA except one POW; 733rd BS lost B-24H-10-CF 42-64464/F8- of 1/Lt. August V Bergman and crew all KIA except one man POW. 734th BS lost B-24J-130-CO 42-1100076/E8- of Lt. Robert R Swigert and crew all KIA, 1 POW. 753rd BS, 458th BG lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52392/J4- of 1/Lt. Edward A Sievers and crew all POW.
67th BS lost B-24H-5-FO 42-7767/NB-C "Shack Rabbit" of 1/Lt. George J Thom and crew all POW; 68th BS lost B-24J-60-CO 42-99987/WQ-S "Pizz and Moan" of 2/Lt. Warren H Barry and crew all POW except 1 KIA; B-24J-105-CO 42-109822/WQ-O "Townsend's Terrible Ten" of 1/Lt. Raymond H Townsend Jr and 4 others KIA, 5 POW plus B-24J-125-CO 42-110020/WQ-Z of 2/Lt. William B Altemus and 6 others KIA, 4 POW 506th BS lost B-24J-100-CO 42-100423/GJ- of 2/Lt. Jack M Winn and crew all POW (apparently in collision with Fw190); plus B-24H-1-CF 41-29153/GJ-Z of 506th BS, 44th BG. 2/Lt. Robert H Marx & crew all POW 704th BS, 448th BG lost B-24H-1-FO 42-7679/FL- "The Beast" of 1/Lt. Percy H Schopfer KIA,rest of crew all POW (already damaged by Flak) 735th BS, 453rd BG lost B-24H-15-CF 41-29571/H6- of 2/Lt. Jack J Dixon and 6 others POW, 3 KIA. 787th BS, 466th BG lost B-24H-15-CF 41-29365/6L-J of 2/Lt. Daniel B Harris and crew all POW except 1 KIA. 786th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52480/U8-K of F/O John T Fouts and crew all POW except 1 KIA. 784th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52516/T9-P of 2/Lt. Harry E Sturdevant Jr and 7 others KIA, 2 POW. 786th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52610/U8-D of 1/Lt. Kenneth R Kessenger and 3 others KIA, 5 POW
(NOTE: All other losses were listed as being due to causes other than fighters)

9.4.44/1058
B-24 Liberator
Bay of Kiel (PQ 15 Ost N/SB) @ 7000m
2nd BD, 8th AAF, 31 Bombers lost this day. 68th BS, 44th BG lost B-24D-160-CO 42-72858/WQ-U "Pistol Packin' Ma Ma" of 1/Lt. Hiram C Palmer and crew all interned in Sweden after fighter damage. 565th BS, 389th BG lost B-24D-15-CF 42-63691/EE- of Capt. Donald C Westerbeke and crew all POW except one man KIA. 577th BS, 392nd BG lost B-24H-5-FO 42-52097/DC- of 2/Lt. Robert H Griggs and crew all KIA. 735th BS, 453rd BG lost B-24H-10-FO 42-52240/H6- of 1/Lt. Keith O Hamby and crew all interned in Sweden after fighter damage whilst 752nd BS, 458th BG lost B-24H-5-DT 41-28667/7V- of 1/Lt. Walter E Mangerich and crew all interned in Sweden after fighter damage. 755th BS lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52423/J3- of 2/Lt. Joseph M Stroup and 1 other KIA, 8 POW
(NOTE: All other losses were listed as being due to causes other than fighters)

9.4.44/1110
P-47 Thunderbolt
Bay of Kiel (PQ SA-SB) @ 6000 or 7000m
8th AAF. Losses include 42-8434/PE-V "Desiree Y" of 328th FS (from 487th FS). Lt. Frederick A "Pappy" Yochim POW and P-47D-5-RE 42-8499 "the Georgia Peach" of 350th FS, 353rd FG. Lt Richard A Stearns Jnr, POW

11.4.44/1100
B-17 Flying Fortress
1km S or 15km N of Fallersleben (PQ 15 Ost S/FB) @ 6000m
Possibly 42-30649 of 327th BS, 92nd BG

13.4.44/1357
B-17G-20-BO Flying Fortress
Darmstadt area (PQ 05 Ost S/RS) @ 6500m
Judging by the timing, this could be 42-31433/SO- "Rum Pot" of 547th BS, 384th BG. 1/Lt. Clarence G Stearns and crew all POW except one man KIA
(Hubert Swoboda is another candidate for her demise)

24.4.44/1247
B-17 Flying Fortress HSS
Strassburg/Hagenau-Buehl (PQ 04 Ost N/AQ/BR) @ 6200m
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. 41 bombers lost out of 754 dispatched. 407th BS, 92nd BG lost B-17G-20-BO 42-31529/PY-N of 1/Lt. Earl Howard Jr and crew all POW plus B-17G-30-BO 42-31921/PY- of 2/Lt. James E King and crew all KIA (crashlanding in Switzerland after fighter damage) 326th BS lost B-17G-30-BO 42-31914/JW- "Butch" of 2/Lt. Bernard Rosenfeld and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 407th BS also lost B-17G-45-BO 42-97203/PY-P of 1/Lt. William W Parramore and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 358th BG, 303rd BG lost B-17G-25-BO 42-31669/VK-J "Shoo Shoo Baby" of 2/Lt. Raymond Hofmann and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter and flak damage plus B-17G-35-DL 42-107200/VK- of 2/Lt. Paul C Stewart and 6 others KIA, 3 POW (already damaged by Flak) 360th BS lost B-17G-80-BO 42-38204/PU-H of 1/Lt. Thomas R McClure and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 366th BS, 305th BG lost B-17G-30-BO 42-31816/KY-V of Capt. Joseph R Lincoln and 7 others evaded, 2 KIA (attributed by 8th & 9th losses to Oblt. Werther from Resigny airfield (??)). 368th BS, 306th BG lost B-17F-110-BO 42-30856/BO- of 2/Lt. Robert E MacDowell and crew all POW except one man KIA. 367th BS lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31172/GY- crew of 2/Lt. Irwin Schwedok plus B-17G-20-BO 42-31758/GY-F of Capt. John J Stolz, both crews all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 423rd BS lost B-17G-20-BO 42-31539/RD-O of 1/Lt. Dale Ebert and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 369th BS lost B-17G-30-BOs 42-31768/WW- of 2/Lt. Carol G Briggs and 42-31901/WW- of 1/Lt. William C Tarr, both crews all POW. 368th BS lost B-17G-1-VE 42-39776 of 1/Lt. John F Coughlin and 4 others KIA, 5 POW. 545th BS, 384th BG lost B-17G-75-BO 42-37885/JD-D "Frostie" of 2/Lt. Virgil R Broyhill and crew all interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 547th BS, 384th BG lost B-17G-45-BOs 42-97221/SO-K of 2/Lt. Richard V Brouillard and crew all POW plus 42-97372/SO- of 2/Lt. Ralph B Haley and crew all POW except one man KIA. 545th BS lost B-17G-50-BO 42-102446/JD- of 1/Lt. Everett L Bailey and 5 others KIA, 4 interned in Switzerland after fighter damage. 560th BS, 388th BG lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31176 of 2/Lt. George J Gwinn and crew all POW (uncertain if it was due to fighters or Flak)
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

29.4.44/1058
B-17 Flying Fortress
E of Braunschweig (PQ 05 Ost S/GB-7) @ 7500m
427th BS, 303rd BG lost B-17F-30-DL 42-3158/GN-Y "Max" of 2/Lt. James H Fisher and 7 others KIA, 2 POW. 545th BS, 384th BG lost B-17G-50-BO 42-102448/JD-P of 2/Lt. James A Bouvier and crew all POW except one man KIA. 614th BS, 401st BG lost B-17G-1-BO 42-31116/IW-O "Cawn't Miss" of 2/Lt. J H Singleton and 4 others evaded capture, 5 KIA. 615th BS lost 42-31521/IY-M "Badland Bat" of Capt. George Gould and crew all POW. 336th BS, 95th BG lost B-17G-20-DL 42-37988/ET-M "Flagship" of 2/Lt. John W Vilberg and crew all POW (possibly already damaged by Flak). 551st BS, 385th BG lost B-17G-5-BOs 42-31133 of 1/Lt. Hector J Garza and crew all POW plus 42-31174 of 1/Lt. Francis J Hart and crew all POW except one man KIA. 549th BS lost B-17G-30-BO 42--31773/M of 1/Lt. Charles R Johnston and one other KIA, 8 POW. 550th BS lost B-17G-40-BO 42-97078 of 2/Lt. William F Henry and 7 others POW, 2 KIA. 551st BS also lost B-17G-45-BO 42-97226/X of 2/Lt. Richard L Huntington and 7 others KIA, 2 POW. 549th BS also lost B-17G-20-VE 41-28759/DC-V of
Donald E Walker KIA, rest of crew POW (already damaged by Flak). 562nd BS lost B-17G-20-DL 42-37980/D of 1/Lt. Joseph D Coyner WIA-POW, rest of crew all POW as well with 2 others WIA. 708th BS, 447th BG lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31144 of 2/Lt. Arthur D Peper and crew all POW plus B-17G-15-DLs 42-37866/D of 1/Lt. Warren D Donahue and 7 others POW, 2 KIA plus 42-37868/B of 2/Lt. Carl J Blom and 5 others POW, 4 KIA 710th BS lost B-17G-5-BO 42-31217 of 2/Lt. Harold M Paris and crew all POW plus B-17G-40-BO 42-97135/N of 1/Lt. Charles H Marcy WIA-POW, rest of crew POW as well as one other WIA. 711th BS lost B-17G-15-VE 42-97501 of 2/Lt. Elmer D Johnson and crew all KIA except one man POW. 708th BS also lost B-17G-50-BOs 42-102421/M of 2/Lt. Charles R Dowler and crew all KIA except one man WIA-POW plus also 42-102479 of 2/Lt. Edgar P Farrell and 5 others POW, 3 KIA
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

8.5.44/0938
B-24 Liberator
Sulingen-Nienburg/SW of Verden (PQ FS-FT-GT) @ 6000m
701st BS, 445th BG lost B-24H-20-FO 42-94957/MK- of 2/Lt. Willim H Peters and crew all KIA. 702nd BS lost B-24H-25-FO 42-95051/WV- of 1/Lt. John C Burnett and crew all POW. 734th BS, 453rd BG lost B-24H-20-CF 42-50278/E8- of Capt. John W Banks and 1 other POW, 8 KIA in collision after fighter attack with B-24J-125-CO 42-110025/E8- of 1/Lt. Dean Hart and 2 others POW, 7 KIA. 735th BS lost B-24-20-CF 42-50327/H6- of 1/Lt. Endicott R Lovell Jr and 6 others KIA, 2 POW plus B-24H-20-FO 42-94806 of 2/Lt. John B Mackay and 2 others POW, 7 KIA. 732nd BS lost B-24H-10-FO 42-52147/E3- of 2/Lt. Ray R Keith and 3 others POW, 6 KIA. 734th BS also lost B-24H-10-FO 42-52169 of 2/Lt. Thomas J Stilbert Jr and 7 others POW, 3 KIA. 788th BS, 467th BG lost B-24H-15-FO 42-52477/X7- of 2/Lt. Charles D Harrison and 5 others KIA, 4 POW
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

12.5.44/1218
B-24 Liberator
Eifel (PQ 05 Ost S/PO-PN) @ 6500m
2nd BD, 8th AAF. Massive overclaiming. Piffer and Koehne teamed up to down
B-24J-130-CO 42-110042/NB-J- of 67th BS, 44th BG. 2/Lt. Lewis Ingram Vance and crew all POW except one man KIA
There were only two other losses in addition to the one above: B-24H-5-CO 42-73503/YM-Y "Marion" of 409th BS, 93rd BG, 1/Lt. Warren O Van Winkle KIA, rest of crew all POW and B-24H-10-DT 42-28715/YO- of 564th BS, 389th BG. Maj. Roger C Hamel and crew all POW

19.5.44/1245
B-24 Liberator
Quackenbrueck (PQ 05 Ost S/FQ-FR)
2nd BD, 8th AAF. 28 losses. 392nd BG lost B-24H-1-CF 41-29129/CI- of 576th BS, 1/Lt. Donald D Prell and 7 others KIA, 2 POW plus B-24H-15-CF 41-29474/GC of 579th BS, Lt. Charles L Felsenthal and crew all KIA near Hessen 1400UST; 492nd BG lost B-24J-140-COs 42-110151/9H- of 857th BS, 2/Lt. Alvin M Murray and 5 others KIA, 4 POW plus 42-110153/9A-R of 858th BS, 2/Lt. Lloyd H Herbert and crew all KIA. 859th BS lost B-24J-145-CO 44-40065/X4-D+ of 2/Lt. Haywood E Brantley and 6 others KIA, 3 POW. 857th BS also lost B-24J-145-CO 44-40088/9H- of 2/Lt. Roger J Brague and 5 others KIA, 4 POW. 858th BS also lost B-24J-145-CO 44-40133/9A- of Capt. James L Lewis and 7 others KIA, 3 POW (also damaged by Flak); 858th BS also lost B-24J-150-CO 44-40151/9A- of 2/Lt. Charles C Pratt and 6 others KIA, 3 POW; 857th BS lost B-24J-150-CO 44-40171/9H- "Boomerang" of 2/Lt. Charles W Arnett and crew all POW except one man KIA
(Other losses were attributed to other causes such as Flak and engine-trouble etc or were known to have been shot down by other pilots)

19.5.44/1255
2 x P-47 Thunderbolts
Nienburg (PQ FT-GT)
P-47D-28-RA Thunderbolt 43-25294/PI- of 360th FS, 356th FG. Edwin D Cook POW

22.5.44/1310
P-38J Lightning
Bay of Kiel @ 7000m
384th FS, 365th FG. Two losses P-38J-10-LO 42-68125/5Y- of 2/Lt. Milton S Damron POW (definitely attributed to fighters, Tralau) and P-38J-15-LO 43-28470/5Y- of 1/Lt. Howard V Kirkpatrick KIA (attributed to an Fw190)
Fw. Barschel claimed the other, so it seems

29.5.44/1235
B-17 Flying Fortress
Goerlitz/Bautzen @ 7500m
452nd BG. Includes 42-31358 of 729th BS, 2/Lt. Shirley A Parvin Jr and 7 others POW, 2 KIA (damaged by fighters, finished off by Flak); same BS lost B-17G-30-VE 42-97808 of 2/Lt. Stanley Lowell and crew all POW 728th BS lost B-17G-20-VE 42-97549 "The Round Tripper" of 2/Lt. Frank W Brogan and 3 others POW, 6 evaded capture (also damaged by fighters, finished by Flak)

15.8.44/1238 and 1240
2 x P-47D Thunderbolt
Houdan-Rambouillet/NE of Chartres (PQ AD-BD) @ 2000m and 3000m
373rd FG, overclaiming - only 4 losses: P-47D-11-RE 42-75510/U9- (ex-Gabby Gabreski machine from 56th FG) 1/Lt. William M Buttner KIA; P-47D-26-RA 42-28431/U9- of 411th FS, Capt. Everett Glenn King KIA; P-47D-11-RE 42-75529/U9-of 411th FS, 2/Lt. William R Sheppard evaded capture. 412th FS lost serial unknown of Capt. Walter E Knudson evaded (damaged then finished off by Flak)
(versus at least eight losses)

17.8.44/1153
2 x Spitfire IXs
Rambouillet/Nogent-le-Roi or N of Chartres (PQ BC-6 to BD-4)
2nd TAF. Apparently overclaiming

28.9.44
B-17 Flying Fortress
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Losses to fighters include B-17G-65-BO 43-37518 "Gini" of 751st BS, 457th BG, all 9 crew KIA plus B-17G-15-VE 42-97470 "Oh Kay" of 748th BS, 457th BG. All 9 crew POW
427th BS, 303rd BG lost 44-8335 of 1/Lt. Charles G Glasgow POW, rest of crew all KIA. 303rd BG lost 10 other aircraft

4.10.44
B-17G-70-VE Flying Fortress
44-8586 of 97th BG

4.10.44
B-17G-45-VE Flying Fortress
44-8043 of 429th BS, 2nd BG

Unconfirmed claim:
6.10.44
F-5C-1-LO Lightning
Zuiderzee
42-67128/128 "Dot + Dash" of 22nd PS, 7th PRG. Lt. Claude C Murray, evaded (assisted by Dutch Resistance)

9.11.44
2 x P-51s
8th AAF. 20th FG lost P-51D-5-NAs 44-13715/KI-K "Little Lady" of 55th FS, Lt. Edward A Loetscher KIA plus 44-13670/LC-S of 77th FS, Lt. John R Wilson KIA

21.11.44
B-17G-50-BO Flying Fortress
42-102484 "Helles Angels" of 359th BS, 303rd BG. 1/Lt A F Chance and crew all KIA (already damaged by flak)

21.11.44
2 more B-17s
1st or 3rd BD, 8th AAF. Day's losses include B-17G 42-38270 of 550th BS, 385th BG. Came down Koerbecke
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 25th December 2018, 19:08
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,040
Franek Grabowski
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Johannes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes View Post
There is no proof that Lang made false claims, we would need a sworn statement from his rottenflieger for that, and that would incriminate himself.
Not necessarily a sworn statement, but a substantiated statement from someone being there at the time would be an indication. I recall on the old forum there was several years ago a quote of a JG 54(?) airman, an ace with 49(?) Il-2 kills, who expressed some his opinions on other aces. I recall he was quite critical on Rudorffer, I think he noted that they flew a patrol and found no wreck following one of Rudorffer's combats. The other airman mentioned whose name I recall was Horst Ademeit, he in turn took victories of his younger wingmen. I have saved the post, but could not find it since.
Is it an evidence? Not sure, but at least it indicates that there was a problem.

Quote:
Nick states that Lang continues his overclaiming with St.II./JG26, another of his rottenflieger follows him there this is Alfred Gross who also was claiming with Lang at 5./JG54...……….but never in the way Hoffmann did. Anyway one would suspect Gross was Lang's enabler at St.II./JG26, but I don't think this is the case, it would appear again that they didn't actually fly together much, in fact 3rd September 1944 is the only proven day. Therefore there must be another explanation why Nick cannot match Lang's claims in the West with Allied losses, this could be that he doesn't have details of ALL the Allied losses, but actually whereas the Sowiets might be incomplete actually the Allied losses we do actually know. There is another possibility, assuming Nick is correct, and personally I think he is, then it's worth mentioning that those who have deemed the worst over-claimers seem to do this as Kommandeur, now with Erich Rudorffer his claims are linked with Kurt Tangermann, again here Tangermann does nothing before or after his time with Rudorffer, but I don't know but is it possible that a Kommandeur[ATTACH]Attachment 17511[/ATTACH]r could self certificate claims(Nowotny's claims the same as Kommandeur), there is absolutely no connection between anybody within Stab.II./JG26 and Lang! Only other thing I can suggest is that Gross and Lang did fly together, but JG26 being a bit more scrutinising that they claimed together but on separate days as to remove suspicion!
You can have a look at Andy Saunders' book on Bader's demise. There he analysed every loss and who could have been a victor. It turned out that three Spitfires fell down to friendly fire, thus quite significantly increasing the overclaim of JG 26. Unfortunately no sources are given, but it is quite enlightening.

As to Eder, I have once tried to contact his family, but with no reply. I do not know why, but I am quite intrigued by his post-war whereabouts. He was invlolved in some bogus stories of mid-1950s involving Mike Gładych, and I find it quite intriguing.

Best wishes

Franek
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 26th December 2018, 13:28
Johannes Johannes is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 945
Johannes is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Hi Franek

Your bogus stories item is actually most interesting, I am sure that some pilots made up such stories, but many others had things made up about them, and probably never ever knew about it in their lifetime.

I had looked at Rudorffer's claims, actually whenever he claims just one or two his rottenflieger doesn't claim, so I would suggest these are genuine, and I also don't think that Hugo Broch was involved, in fact I am thinking he was a genuine witness to Rudorffer's little days.

Have just completed my Lang/Hoffmann and Gross cross-examination, Seems that Gross was not Lang's rottenflieger with St.II./JG26, and Lang in each case was the only claimer, so we need a more informed TOCH member to advise on if a Kommandeur is treated differently whilst claiming(though so was Rudorffer, but still used Tangermann). Now TOCH looked into Maximilian Stotz, and we concluded that again over a very short period his claims became spectacular, and we concluded he was influenced by hisKommandeur Hans Hahn, then on Hahn's lose reverts to unspectacular claiming, well Lang flew with Stotz………...and Tangermann before his spectacular phase. Lang's rottenflieger were generally Reinhold Hoffmann and Alfred Gross, I am not at all sure that Gross was involved in the overclaiming, pretty sure that Hoffmann was, all this including Stotz was with 5./JG54, when Lang,Gross and Hoffmann move onto III./JG54 their claims are unspecatular, in fact Gross's never were!


Regarding Lang's super seventeen(eighteen by press) Norbert Hannig states these were achieved in four sorties two, seven, five and four making eighteen, in reality it was seven, one, five and four making seventeen, Hannig states that on the first sortie his rottenflieger was Peschke, the second Gross, the third Gross and Hoffmann, and the four Hoffmann, yet in reality Hoffmann would have been on all four, Peschke the first, Gross the second. Hannig also states that on the first sortie ALL of Lang's four cannons jammed and he returned with "two kills", yet it looks like this was the second mission(with Gross anf Hoffmann) which resulted in just "one kill", again I believe personally that this was a legitimate claim, and again Lang is not alone with Hoffmann. Hannig's statement is roughly matching the fact, but a little mixed-up, also it seems that Peschke would be mixed-up in the false claims(see attached.


With Nowotny we have been informed for decade of the famous schwarm with Dobele, Rademacher and Schnorrer, yet there is little evidence for this, again like Lang when with the St.I./JG54 Nowotny is claiming alone, but during his spectacular period he's claiming with Gerhard Loos and Anton Dobele, and when they part company both of these rottenflieger return to unspectacular claiming(see attached) don't think that either Schnorrer or Rademacher are involved.[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]AA.Hoffmann.Reinhold@~fraudulent claims.xls[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
Same can be said about the Graf schwarm, don't think that Alfred Grislawski was involved, and he was the only one of the four who did anything outside of 9./JG52...…..coincidence ?


Actually I had heard good things about III./JG54, if true this might explain the very obvious decline in the Lang gang's claiming. Hopefully a Russian loss expert can cross-examine my thoughts here.

As for Bader, fact he came up alone behind a whole staffel of Bf109's, didn't want to attack so dove away, another Spitfire came up behing the same staffel and saw one dive away, which he nailed...…..it being Bader, Bader never fired a shot, claimed he shot down two Bf109's and collided with another, Bader's victor was them himself shot down, whilst a prisoner and talking to Bader he realised his mistake and apoligised to Bader, yer Bader still maintained he was rammed by a Bf109, I believe he also avoided paying tax on his autobiography because he was a National hero...…...you need gal.


Kind Regards


Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 26th December 2018, 14:03
Alfred.MONZAT's Avatar
Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 312
Alfred.MONZAT is on a distinguished road
Re: Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski View Post
You can have a look at Andy Saunders' book on Bader's demise. There he analysed every loss and who could have been a victor. It turned out that three Spitfires fell down to friendly fire, thus quite significantly increasing the overclaim of JG 26. Unfortunately no sources are given, but it is quite enlightening.

I have not read this book but... three friendly fire ? In the same combat ?



8 Spitfires were lost and one third would have fell to friendly fire ?


According to what I have 2 FTR and 6 were reported shot down by Bf 109s during Circus 68. They claimed 15 sure victories (+8 probables).


The Luftwaffe have one loss to Spitfire and another one, but not sure if related to the combat. They claimed 6 which were confirmed (one unconfirmed).


Not sure the Luftwaffe overclaimed a lot on this particular combat (overclaim was probably higher on the evening battle), even taking these three friendly fire as granted.


Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alfred Schreiber, 1st jet ace Kutscha Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 16 17th March 2017 02:20
Old Topic-When did Maj Georg Peter Eder crash in a Me262 kaki3152 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 5th June 2014 14:07
Alfred Ambs 262 Jet Fighter Ace David P. Williams Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 12 12th September 2010 04:29
Heinz Bar - top Luft daylight jet ace? Pathfinder Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 20th April 2008 14:29
Georg Peter Eder 6/JG1 victory 29 April 1944 Andy F-P Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 16th October 2007 09:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:37.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net