Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 17th May 2019, 18:52
kirche kirche is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Moscow region
Posts: 260
kirche is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
For the 27 August there was an interesting additional piece of information provided by Kirche on this incident. The reason for the “wasp nest” being so active was as the Soviet aircraft were traveling east there was a Hs 126 going the opposite direction. That would account for the hot reception they received.
Michael, the Russians approached not from the East and from the North (I think even from the North-West skirting Rzhev) is 3 VA - they are from East to Dugino never fly. All losses after the attack on Dugino. Scout they met who flew too at Dugino from Rzhev - apparently returning .
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 22nd May 2019, 21:23
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,526
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

18 August 1942

At 06:05 (MT) took off Pe-2 (# 11/90) from the 11 ORAP flown by Serzhant Ivan Moshkin for a reconnaissance in the area of Bely, Guseva and Afanasovo. Lt. Klaus-Hennig Kamrath of 12./JG 51 claimed a Yak-4 (1) at 05:50. Serzhant Moshkin would be released from a POW camp in 1945. (TsAMO f. 21966, o. 0198586s, d. 0002, l. 2 Journal of Combat Operations 11 ORAP, also information from Kirche)

At 08:30(MT) in the area of Timofeevo at an altitude of 1500 m 3 LaGG-3 from 5 GIAP led by Kapitan Laveykin intercepted and engaged in a dogfight 4 Bf 109 F. After 3-4 attacks the Bf 109s left to the south.

At 11:45 (MT) in the area of Znamemskoye at an altitude of 2000 m 6 LaGG-3 from the 5 GIAP led by Podpolkovik Juriy Berkal’ met in battle 6 Bf 109, which attempted to attack a Pe-2, after the attack the German fighters went into the clouds. No results were claimed by either side.

15:40 - 15:55 (MT) in the area of the airfield of Rzhev at an altitude of 1000 m an interception of 14 Ju 88 and 2 escorting Bf 109 was made by 4 LaGG-3 from the 5 GIAP led by Mayor Grigoriy Onufrienko (Soviet ace). The Soviet fighters made 4 attacks on the German bombers. Soviet pilots claimed 3 damaged Ju 88 for the damage to one LaGG-3. No German claims were made. (TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0050, l. 110 Operational Report of the Staff 209 IAD)

15:35 - 16:30 (MT) 5 Yak-1 from 163 IAP led by Mayor Aleksandr Tormozov escorted 5 Il-2 from the 212 ShAD to operate in the area of Red’kino. In the target area they met 3 Ju 88 and went to attack and were in turn attacked by 6 Bf 109. In the ensuing dogfight the Shturmoviks laid down a smoke screen, while the Soviet fighters kept them at bay for an escape. On landing the Soviet Yak-1 flown by Leytenant Sergey Katyukov was listed as missing. Obfw. Heinz Klöpper of 11./JG 51 claimed a LaGG-3 (60) at 17:00 at 7 km northeast of Wassiljeswkoje (Vasil’yevskoye, Tver Oblast). Katyukov would return to his regiment. (TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0051, l. 97 Operational Report of the Staff 210 IAD)

More on Obfw. Heinz Klöpper in later posts. Also more to come on the claim for Günther Schack’s claim for this day when documentary information can be verified.

Last edited by Nokose; 22nd May 2019 at 21:26. Reason: Updated source information
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 23rd May 2019, 05:00
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,581
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Whole crew of 11 ORAP on 18 August 1942 is listed at http://allaces.ru/p/ls.php?div=rap0011&sort=dateL, all three crew are listed as missing;

https://obd-memorial.ru/html/advanced-search.htm only lists Moshkin as a released POW
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 23rd May 2019, 22:56
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,526
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

12 August 1942 10:08 - ? (MT) at an altitude of 3100 m approached 5 Pe-2 from the 793 BBAP to their target in the area of Rzhev and observed antiaircraft fire. They reported being attacked by 2 Bf 109 and 2 He-113 from above on their rear. After 4 attacks the Pe-2s of Leytenant Nikolay Evseev and Mladshiy Leytenant Mikhail Kochkin started loosing altitude. One Pe-2 at an altitude of 100-150 m fell burning 12-15 km north of Rzhev. From the second Pe-2 was observed one member of the crew to parachute, the landing place of both parachutist and aircraft not observed. One returning Pe-2 on returning was damaged and the right landing gear came down as it attempted to make a landing, it folded and further damaged the aircraft. Feldwebel Rudi Meyer of 9./JG 51 claimed a Pe-2 (1) at 09:43 and Unteroffizier Hubert Strassl of 9./JG 51 claimed a Pe-2 (5) at 09:45. The Soviet gunners made a claim for one Me-109 and one He-113. No Bf 109s were lost. (TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0052, l. 90 Operational Report of the Staff 211 BBAD)

06:05 - 07:40 (MT) making a reconnaissance into the area of Rzhev - Zubtsov was a Pe-2 from the 11 ORAP and the crew reported being attacked by 2 Bf 109 at 07:15 (MT). Unteroffizier Günther Schack from 7./JG 51 claimed a Pe-2 (8) at 06:10 at an altitude of 1500 m at 12 km northeast of Zubtsov. Excerpt from Schack’s diary listed in the book “Alarmstart East: The German Fighter Pilot’s Experience on the Eastern Front 1941-1945” by Patrick G. Eriksson, “On 12 August I am able to score my 8th Abschuss. After completing an escort mission, a lone Pe-2 turns up. Before it can save itself in the clouds, large flames come out of the right wing after my burst. She falls into the Volga with a big splash. One man was able to save himself with his parachute.” The Pe-2 returned to its airfield missing one crew member, apparently the gunner. This man does not appear in the Russian OBD, so apparently he returned later. As for the Pe-2 the Soviets classified the damage as due to antiaircraft fire. (TsAMO f. 21966, o. 01985886s, d. 0002, l. 1 page 1 Journal of Combat Operations of the 11 ORAP)

Last edited by Nokose; 24th May 2019 at 02:41. Reason: Removed the III./JG 51 loss that actually occurred on the 10 August 1942
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24th May 2019, 22:54
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,526
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

06 August 1942 20:05 - 21:05 (MT) 3 Yak-1 of 521 IAP led by Mayor Timofey Koylochny engaged 12 Bf 109 F at Zubtsov. Mayor Koylochny claimed a Me-109 F and Leytenant Vladimir Timofeenko also claimed a Me-109 F at Zubtsov. In this dogfight Leutnant Ernst Weismann of 12./JG 51 claimed a MiG-3 (60) at 19:32 and another MiG-3 (61) at 19:35. Koylocny’s score for the war was 4 individual and 1 group. Timofeenko’s score for the war was 4 individual and 1 group.

There were no actual German losses. The Soviet losses were the Yak-1 flown by Kapitan Chemerichkin of the 521 IAP. (TsAMO f. 311, o. 0004495, d. 0051, l. 83 Operational Report of the Staff 210 IAD)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 26th May 2019, 23:23
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,526
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

9 August 1942

12:30 - 14:10 (MT) 5 Hurricanes of the 157 IAP escorted Pe-2 bombers to bomb the railway station at Osuga. The Hurricane of Serzhant Il’ya Korsunskiy was supposedly hit by German flak in the target area and damaged. On the return at an altitude of 700 - 800 m, they were attacked out of the clouds by 5 Bf 109. Korsunkiy was missing on the other Hurricanes making a landing. (TsAMO f. 22362, o. 0429910s, d. 0001, l. 2 Journal of Combat Operations of the 157 IAP) Oberfeldwebel Heinz Klöpper of 11./JG 51 claimed a Hurricane (57) at 12:10 at 15 km SouthSouthWest of Zubtsov and another Hurricane (58) at 12:12 at 15 km South of Zubtsov. The Soviet 3 VA did report the loss of two Hurricanes this day but the other was during a morning mission.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 28th May 2019, 00:04
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,526
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

19 August 1942

At 15:12 (MT) took off LaGG-3 (# 3234) flown by Kapitan Pavel Emel’yanov of 21 IAP on an escort mission for a section of Il-2 from 5 ShAP. In the area of Burkovo his fighter was attacked by a Bf 109 and shot down. From the German side, Oberfeldwebel Heinz Klöpper of 11./JG 51 claimed a LaGG-3 (61) at 14:25 at 18 km to the northwest of Rzhev.

At 17:07 (MT) took off LaGG-3 (# 3237) flown by Serzhant Mikhail Mintrakov of 21 IAP for another escort mission of the Shturmoviks of 5 ShAP in the Rzhev area. At an altitude of 1500 m he was reported attacked by 6 Bf 109 and shot down. Gefreiter Erich Hilbein of 8./JG 51 claimed a LaGG-3 (2) at 16:40 in that area.

Both 21 IAP pilots were listed as missing in action but amazingly none of their charges were reported harmed. (TsAMO f. 22020, o. 044524, d. 0006, l. 1 page 63 Journal of Combat Operations of 21 IAP)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 28th May 2019, 09:27
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,211
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Michael

Previously you have always listed the number of Soviet fighters going into combat. Should the 19/8 actions be interpreted that 21 IAP only sent one single LaGG-3 as an escort each time?

That sounds more or less like suicide missions to me, especially in a LaGG-3!

B Rgds
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 28th May 2019, 10:44
Nokose's Avatar
Nokose Nokose is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,526
Nokose is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Stig,

Strangely enough there was only one LaGG-3 per mission.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 28th May 2019, 11:23
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 641
Andrey Kuznetsov is on a distinguished road
Re: Air War Above Rzhev - Zubtsov

Hello Nokose,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nokose View Post
Strangely enough there was only one LaGG-3 per mission.
Please read what is written on the right side of the diary.
Each time on 19.Aug.42 the 21.IAP's pilot was a wingman in 5.GIAP.
The missions were troops cover, not the escort of Il-2s

Best regards,
Andrey
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Researching the Luftwaffe through Prisoner Interrogations Bruce Dennis Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 50 25th April 2019 01:09
Kg51 "edelweiss" the complete history of kg 51 in world war ii". Mike H Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 14 8th February 2015 13:24
Air War Publications starts publishing electronic articles Andrew Arthy Books and Magazines 9 27th October 2014 01:15
My library - you rate it! generalderpanzertruppen Books and Magazines 8 24th November 2007 03:36
VVS divisions Mike35nj Allied and Soviet Air Forces 2 7th August 2006 14:27


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net