P-51 loss on 2 April 1945

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Hello,

The link below describes a forced-landing of a P-51 pilot between Löhrbach and Ober-Abtsteinach, Hessen, Germany (ENE of Mannheim), on 2 April 1945. According to witnesses, the already wounded pilot died of his wounds on site shortly after the forced landing.
http://www.morr-siedelsbrunn.de/%C3%...l%C3%B6hrbach/

Neither this pilot or the unit is identified, and I have been unable to find a possible ID for him (I found two P-51 pilots killed this day but one in Austria and one in Denmark area).

Any idea ? 354th FG was involved in an air battle not far away, but AFAIK suffered no loss.

[pdame141]

Laurent:

Based on the code YF-D and name "Sweet Stuff" I think this P-51D was from the 8th AF Second Scouting Force based out of Steeple Morden.

I found online records (at http://www.littlefriends.co.uk) that suggest this was s/n 44-11341 and assigned to Cap. George Ceglarski, but there appears to be some confusion as to the serial between the ship shown in the picture you linked Capt. Ceglarski's later P-51K "Sweet Stuff II." The Little Friends site also has a picture of Capt. Ceglarski with the later ship.

Fold3 doesn't have an MACR for Ceglarski, so it seems likely that another 2SF pilot was flying YF-D on 2 April 1945.

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
Paul Dame

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Thanks for searching, but my understanding of the German text under the picture is that the picture displayed was not taken on this crash site, but that the forced landed P-51 on 2 April 1945 probably looked like the one displayed on the picture.

[pdame141]

My lack of German strikes again. Well, at least I learned something new about the 8th AF Scouting Force. I'll keep digging as well as I'm intrigued by the mystery.

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

From Accident-Report.com webpage

44-11341 - P-51D - 441126 - United Kingdom.
44-11341 - P-51D - 450108 - United Kingdom.

And from Aviation Archaeology webpage

441126 - P-51D-5 - 44-11341 - 2sf - 122 - 8- CRL - 4 - Ceglarski, George W - ENG - Steeple Morden/Sta 122.
450108 - P-51D-5 - 44-11341 - 2sf - 122 - 8- CRL - 3 - Castleberry, Marvin H - ENG - Steeple Morden/Sta 122.

.joebaugher.com/usaf_serials/1944
has -

11341 (2nd Scouting Force, 355th FG) crashlanded at RAF Steeple Morden, Cambridgeshire, England Jan 8, 1945.
Pilot survived but aircraft was destroyed.


So perhaps not this aircraft after all?
Perhaps the photo of her was used as an example ?

Here are the known P-51 MACR's for 45/04/02 -
13641 - 44-14462 - 325FG/318FS - Austria - Parker - KIA.
13642 - 43-24784 - 325FG/318FS - Austria - Davis(MACR) OR Southern ? - KIA.
13688 - 44-11890 - 3FG/8FS - China - Pilot KIA.
13965 - 44-13814 - 364FG/385FS - North Sea - Hassell - Never found.
14148 - 44-14467 - 325FG/318FS - Hungary - Murphy - RTD.

Here are the known P-51 Accidents for 45/04/02 -
44-63486 - 332FG/99FS - Italy - Barland.
44-15662 - 479FG/436FS - England - Sherer - RTD.

Alex

[Alfred.MONZAT]

There is no doubt the aircraft in the photo is 44-11341 of the 2nd SF but the damages look totaly different of the ones suffered on 8 January 1945 (http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/8884).

May it have been repared after all ?

I found nothing in Bill Marshall's book about the 355th FG and 2nd SF for the 2nd SF on 2 April 1945 but may he have something to add about this photo...

Regards

Alfred

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT

There is no doubt the aircraft in the photo is 44-11341 of the 2nd SF but the damages look totaly different of the ones suffered on 8 January 1945 (http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/8884).


May it have been repared after all ?

I found nothing in Bill Marshall's book about the 355th FG and 2nd SF for the 2nd SF on 2 April 1945 but may he have something to add about this photo...

Regards

Alfred

Peter is correct about the 11/26/44 photo in the link of theCrash landing damage photo with Ceglarski at Steeple Morden.

Alfred - it could have been repaired but -

YF-D started life in the 358FS, then assigned to E Flight 358FS/2SF. It was damaged with Ceglarski at controls following a belly landing at Steeple Morden on November 26, 1944. On January 16, 1945 it C/L with Castleberry on the continent. Castelberry was not hurt but YF-D was seriously damaged and I think written off.

If repaired it would have returned most likely to another Group as it would have only remained in service with the 355th if flown back to Steeple Morden within several days

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Have looked through the lists of MIA's still not yet recovered for the 2nd April 1945 and found two P38's( 1 14FG, 1 82FG ), five P51's ( 2x Austria, I China, 1 Hungary 1 North Sea ?) and five P47's ( 3x 27FG, 1 79FG, 1 86 FG), only one P51 pilot seems to be anywhere near.

HASSELL, Edward M - 814685 - 2Lt - P-51 - 44-13814, 364FG/385FS. MACR 13965.

Thing is he was reported to have turned back but had gone into the sea, search only found oil slick though, also I do not think that he would have reached so far inland when returning over the Continent but just maybe if out of fuel and in a long glide ?? Thoughts on this please ?

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Another side to this story may just be that the witnesses at the time just got it wrong ?
I would expect however that after so long at war with the UK they would know the difference between the markings of the RAF and the "Star & bar" of the US forces.
But anything is possible, so here are some RAF losses around the time in question.
Typhoon losses -
01/04/1945
137 Sqn - EK128, force landed NW of Rheine near Lingen, pilot safe.
137 Sqn - RB193, s/d by flak E of Múnster, pilot killed.
174 Sqn - RB396, Flak, force landed NE of Denekamp, pilot safe.
181 Sqn - MN819, Flak, force landed E of Nordhorn, pilot evaded.
183 Sqn - DN248, Flak, s/d Hardenburg, pilot killed.
183 Sqn - MN419, dbr, SoC 12/06/45.
183 Sqn - SW476, Last seen E of Zutphen, pilot pow.
193 Sqn - RB373, Flak NE of Almelo, pilot pow.
247 Sqn - SW408, Flak, NW of Ensberen, pilot baled, evaded.
247 Sqn - SW425, Flak, force landed near Meppen, pilot pow.
266 Sqn - PD473, Flak over Lonneker, pilot killed.
02/04/1945
198 Sqn - one a/c Cat E.
439 (RCAF) Sqn - MN581, Flak ? force landed 9m N of Nordhorn, pilot pow.
03/04/1945
174 Sqn - RB487, Crashed in bad weather 6m W of Rheine, Rhodesian SAAF pilot killed.

Tempest Losses -
02/04/1945
3 Sqn - NV777, Cat E.
80 Sqn - NV982, Flak Rheine-Hannover area, pilot killed.
80 Sqn - SN139, Last seen E of Friesoythe, pilot Shot while pow.
03/04/1945
56 Sqn - EJ526, engine trouble, crashed S of Diepholz, pilot evaded.
56 Sqn - NV728, engine failure, force landed E of Friesoythe, pilot safe.
274 Sqn - NV990, engine failure, force landed SW of Hengelo, pilot safe.

Refs were AB RAF serial number series and Fighter Command War Diaries and Franks RAF Fighter Command Losses vol 3.

RAF Mustang Losses (Germany) -
29/03/1945
154 Sqn - KH697, (44-11400) pilot killed, MIA.
04/04/1945
165 Sqn - KH504. (44-10867) pilot killed(?), Bellylanded 29m West of Wiesbaden.

Alex

[Alex Smart]

Hello,

Photo caption says -
" Thus, the emergency landing machine might have looked ".

So Not the actual aircraft involved but purely shown for example of how the crashed aircraft might have looked.

As for the date, was the 2nd April 1945 Easter Monday ?

Also, it seems that the area was no longer in German hands as the US troops arrived as did a "Storch" which landed near the crashed aircraft and was crewed by Americans.

So it would not have an MACR as was in Allied territory, perhaps an accident report but if not an accident then perhaps not.

Pilot was wounded and was removed from the aircraft, and died, so would have been recovered at some point, his IDPF would give full details, but for that a name is required.

The wreckage was later recovered by a US unit so possible recovery report exists ?

9th AAF aircraft near to this date was a PR version the day before 04/01/1945, possibly named "Guarding Angel", an F-6, 42-103216 - 111TRS - Germany - MACR 13654 - Carl A. Sodermark.

The only other explanation would be either RAF or French P-51.
Stretching it perhaps another "Bubble" hood type, such as a Typhoon or Tempest ?

Looked at MACR 13654 and it just might fit...



http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg...&GRid=83964551

Note date of internment - 7/1948.

alex