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  #11  
Old 19th September 2008, 00:20
Steve_Fossey Steve_Fossey is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Let me ask a general question, did Bulgarian fighters intercept USAAF bombers headed to or from Ploesti that may have passed over or very close to Bulgaria or were they primarily just assigned to the defense of Sofia and the rest of Bulgaria?

In particular, A/C 42-31825, a B-17G of the 775th BS/ 463rd BG crashed probably in Bulgaria on 18 May 1944 (MACR 5791). The return flight from Ploesti to Foggia crossed over Orekhova. '825 had dropped out of formation and was not seen again, all ten crew were KIA. Is there any record on the Bulgarian side?

Thanks,
Steve
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  #12  
Old 20th September 2008, 17:05
Burdokva Burdokva is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Yes, they did engage - when the bombers or fighters passed through, they did violate Bulgarian airspace after all. On the trip to Ploesti combat was limited, because Bulgarian fighter units didn't have the numerical strength to charge head on against the large and well protected bomber formations. Smaller groups and stragglers were often targeted, as well as larger formations when "gaps" appeared in the fighter cover or the latter was weak.
Planes returning from Ploesti, even large bombers groups were vigorously attacked because when they couldn't find their targets they bombed cities in Bulgaria on the return trip.

Sadly, the aerial warfare during the summer, after the last bombing of Sofia in late April to late August is very briefly covered in Bulgarian researches; that official records state that there were 384 engagements between US and Bulgarian planes which clearly shows that active fighting continued well until the end of the bomber offensive against Ploesti.

On 18th May 1944 two Bf 109's of 3/6 orlyak, piloted by podporuchik Ivan Bonev and feldfebel-shkolnik Dako Kakov shot down a "Liberator" bomber, which fell near Prishtina (today in Serbia).
Podporuchik Evgeni Tonchev of 3/6 orlyak with Bf 109 shot down a 4-engined bomber near Prokupene.

Most likely Tonchev shot down the B-17.
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  #13  
Old 20th September 2008, 19:59
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burdokva View Post
...Prishtina (today in Serbia).
Isn't Pristina now part of Kosovo?
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  #14  
Old 26th September 2008, 06:12
Yves Marino Yves Marino is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Santiago View Post
.... Is there a listing of USAAF claims against the Bulgarian by group or pilots available.
Cheers
Santiago A. Flores
Santiago,
based on the list with dates posted earlier by Centurion you can check also the AFHRA Historical Studies with listings of several (if not all) USAAF victories and claims by date and/or pilot. Free for download here:
http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/number...s/studies2.asp
See under Nr.85 - Historical Study #01039707 (or rightclick on the link and "save target as").
A list with the Bulgarian victories and claims was published here:
http://aces.safarikovi.org/victories/bulgaria-ww2.html

Best Regards
Yves
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  #15  
Old 26th September 2008, 14:30
Burdokva Burdokva is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád View Post
Isn't Pristina now part of Kosovo?
Oh, yes! Sorry, must have typed it on "autopilot" by memory!

Yves, the list by J.Safarik is very nice, but sadly there are some inaccuracies, originated from the Bulgarian archives. There are some inexplicable errors in those archives: for example , poruchik Georgi Kjumjurdzhiev is credited with a "damaged bomber" for two points on December 20th 1943, when in fact he shot down a P-38 and damaged another one (according to P-38 pilot 2nd Lt. Edward Tinker the damaged ""Lightning", probably that of 2nd Lt. John McClendon, also crashed); poruchik Kjumjurdzhiev died that same day, fighting another P-38. It's unclear if he also damaged a bomber. Captain Spisarevski is credited with a destoyed bomber, but he set one on fire (for which he's credited) and after that rammed a second.

Another example from April 17th 1944:
"... 4. Podpourchik-pilot Nayden Petrov STOYANOV - fires against a "Thunderbolt", the fighter is hit and descends in a western direction. At 4000 the plane is attacked by podofitser-pilot Nayden Hristov GOGOV between Dragoman and Tzaribrod. There most likely the plane fell down..."
This fighter isn't "Thunderbolt", but MACR 4230 , a P-51B-10NA from 309th FS, 31st FG.

(I still can't find any evidence if P-47's actually flew over Bulgaria, so most likely Bulgarian pilots reffered to the P-51 both as "Mustang" and "Thunderbolt").

In his book pilot Todor Rozev from 4/6 orlyak, armed with D.520s, claims that he shot a "Mustang" on June 23rd 1944 , most likely P-51C-5NT "Hell's Belle's" of Lt. David Hanson, 318th FS, 325FG. Rozev also remembers that he saw 6 "Thunderbolts" over Vratza on August 26th 1944 (probably P-51s of 332nd FG). There was fighting on that day, Bulgarian pilots claiming a bomber and twin-engined fighter shot down. USAAF archives also list the P-51 of Lt. Henry Wise as lost over Vratza. Neither of the P-51s I mentioned were credited to Bulgarian pilots, as far as I know there are also claims of bombers returning from Ploesti that aren't officialy credited.
Worse still, the log books of 1/6 orlyak were lost. The orlyak was heavily engaged in the fighting until its airfield was bombed twice on June 12th and 28th, with great lost of personnel and aircraft.

I could only guess that Bulgarian Fighter command was either negligent, or reluctant of credting pilots for downing plaines returning from Ploesti.
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  #16  
Old 26th September 2008, 16:13
Yves Marino Yves Marino is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burdokva View Post

Yves, the list by J.Safarik is very nice, but sadly there are some inaccuracies, originated from the Bulgarian archives. There are some inexplicable errors in those archives...
Burdokva,
Thanks for your reply! If I only had so much time to write answers like you...
I posted the above link with the usual note "victories and claims", not victories only! I'm also sure that many of the claims of both Bulgarian and American pilots were and remain only claims, sometimes even multiple claims against one and the same a/c.
The information from the Chech site, provided in fact by Mr. Theodor Muchovski is really strictly based on Bulgarian documents but as you've pointed out not accurate (for what one can not blame the provider but solemnly the main source).
I have no success yet in finding out the real numbers ("The Truth is out there!", remember) after years of comparing Bulgarian and USAAF archival sources.
In any case for a research like this it's always good to check even wrong data. To be honest it is my understanding that the losses given by both sides are much more accurate than the claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burdokva View Post
USAAF archives also list the P-51 of Lt. Henry Wise as lost over Vratza. Neither of the P-51s I mentioned were credited to Bulgarian pilots...
Allow me a small remark here: the Tuskegee pilot 2 Lt. Henry Wise crashed in Bulgaria, became a POW and was sent to the POW camp in Shumen. But he wasn't shot down - at least accord. to Osprey's book "332-nd Fighter Group Tuskegee Airmen" - s. below:


By the way there is no MACR for Henry Wise! So I have no additional proof for the above statement.
There is no MACR for David Hanson either. I remember adding his case to my list with casualties over Bulgaria a year ago or so. Same story with a B-24 from the 484-th BG., shot down/crashed on the same day (June 23.1944) but with no MACR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Burdokva View Post
(I still can't find any evidence if P-47's actually flew over Bulgaria, so most likely Bulgarian pilots referred to the P-51 both as "Mustang" and "Thunderbolt"...
I'm so to say a "believer"! Besides the official Bulgarian reports about "Jugs" over Sofia, check also this mission log:

http://www.450thbg.com/real/biographies/kostro/kostro.shtml

48th Mission « April 17, 1944
The target was Sofia, Bulgaria. The target was the city. There was plenty of flak. We had a P-51 and P-47 escort. One fighter attacked our squadron firing 20mm. It didn't do no damage. The left waist gunner fired at it, it got away. 51/2 hr. flight.

Best Regards!
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Last edited by Yves Marino; 28th September 2008 at 08:00.
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  #17  
Old 25th February 2019, 23:21
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

I am resurrecting this over ten years old thread in the hope that the serial number of P-51B, flown by Tuskegee pilot Henry Wise of 332nd FG, 99th FS, on 26 Aug. 1944, POW to the Bulgarians, has been discovered in the meantime. Many thanks, in advance!
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  #18  
Old 26th February 2019, 04:03
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Hello,
While the date for Wise is always accepted as being the 26th August, 1944 I have never seen an explanation for the later capture date as given in the NARA Pow list. 6th September,44 ?

https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-...48,25249,25250

Alex
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  #19  
Old 26th February 2019, 18:07
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is online now
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Hello,

Here is what Wise had to say, post-war:

On August 25, (1944), the 332nd escorted bombers of the 5th over Germany, The mission however, was carried out without resistance by enemy fighters. The next day, the 332nd escorted B-17s and B-24s to the heavily fortified Ploesti oil fields. Although the mission was successfully carried out, LT Henry A. Wise of Cheriton, Virginia, was forced to bail out of his ship which developed engine trouble on his return to base.
The fact that LT Wise volunteered to fight the Nazi is sufficient evidence of his fighting blood. In July, 1942, when the Allied's chance of winning the war looked very dim, Wise volunteered for the Army. In spite of numerous stories of Allied losses in the air, he applied for cadet training, He was sent to Tuskegee Army Air Field where he earned his wings. In July 1944, he joined the 99th and flew 13 missions over France, Romania, Germany, and Italy before he was forced to parachute from his plane.
When the men returned to Tuskegee after the war, most evenings were spent "shooting the breeze" about combat experiences. Wise had his story to tell, and this is how he related what happened to him after bailing out of his ship. "Returning from the mission to Ploesti on August 26 (1944), I was forced to bail out of my plane at 9,000 feet. Immediately after hitting the ground, I was captured by a group of Bulgarian soldiers and taken to prison. I was placed in a local guard house at the nearest enemy camp. I stayed there only two days, but in those two days, I almost starved because I couldn't eat the type of food they gave me.
"On the third day, I was placed under a guard and carried across country to a prisoner of war camp. The camp was a lone stone building constructed to hold about 100 men. But already there were about 300 men at the camp, all Allied fliers, British, North Africans (?), Yugoslavians, Australians, Poles, and Americans. Officers and enlisted men were all encamped together, dirty, hungry, and definitely in need of clothing because all of it had been taken when we were captured.
"I was the only Negro in the camp. However, I got along well as the others and no difference was shown by the Bulgarians or my fellow prisoners. We shared the same beds, same foods, and same difficulties. We suffered no physical punishment such as torture and beatings. Three weeks after I arrived at the prison camp, the Russians moved into the country and forced the Bulgarians to sign peace terms. We were freed and immediately sent across the border."

See:
The Men Who Changed A Nation - The Tuskegee Airmen.
Francis,Charles E.
Brookline Village:Branden Publishing,1988,
p.130.

Col

Last edited by Col Bruggy; 27th February 2019 at 00:24.
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  #20  
Old 27th February 2019, 21:06
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: USAAF claims against Bulgarian AF

Hi Alex, here is what a Bulgarian researcher wrote about Lt. Wise's capture: "Hi Denes, Lt.Hery Wise (1920-2003) was captured on 26 August 1944 near Vratsa,Northern Bulgaria,sent to Sofia, held for a week in Sofia Garrison prison and transferred to Shumen POW camp, arrived there on September 2, liberated September 8, 1944. I am sure...."
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