Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 14th August 2018, 16:44
Allan125 Allan125 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cornwall/UK
Posts: 244
Allan125 is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

As an aside - H I Couzens later commanded Hemswell, and was responsible for the famous colour film "Night Bombers"

Allan
__________________
Allan Hillman
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 14th August 2018, 16:55
Matheson Matheson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Matheson is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Hello Martin,

Geoff Matheson was killed with my wife's father on 24 Aug 1943 flying
mosquito HJ 673 an aircraft they first flew at High Ercall on 60 O.T.U. in May 43.

Since GCM was not piloting the pranged a/c his logbook will not contribute. I did email the person with GCM's pilot's log to see if there was information about his flying on that day and here's what he reports:

I've checked Geoffrey's log book for the period around 21 April 1940. Certainly no mention of the specific Spitfire in your email (N3200). Indeed, the entry for 21 April was an engine test of N3238, a Spitfire he had already flown on 15 April. However, following the last entry for 27 April, there is an entry for 21 April (although it could be an error for 27 April) for a flight in Spitfire L1031 "to and from Duxford", lasting one hour. If he had delivered another Spitfire that day it seems strange not to have mentioned it/them in an otherwise very detailed log, not least because it must have taken up some significant time.

I note in the diary that GCM and 3 pilots had flown to Ternhill on 5th April to collect four spitfires. Not quite sure how they did this so assume they left their transport at Ternhill.

I am hoping to get a look at the Pilot's log later in October.

Best wishes,

Howard
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Gleeson View Post
Hello Howard,

Thanks for the very interesting contribution. Is GC a relative ?

As far as I know this is a ‘new’ Spitfire accident to most of us. There is no F.1180 accident report and no mention of it in the 19 Squadron Operational Record Book. Some units, including 19 Sqn., were reluctant to report all their prangs. I would like to identify this Spitfire if possible. I suspect, but cannot prove, it might be K9825. 19 Squadron only reported operational sorties in their F.541 ‘Detail of Work Carried Out’ part of the ORB. K9825 is last shown flying operationally on 8 April 1940 and does not appear again until 26 May. The Form 78 aircraft history card for K9825 provides no help unfortunately.
Did GC record any flights – these would be non-operational – in K9825 between 8 April and 26 May 1940 ?

As part of my research into RAF losses during 1939-1940 for the Eagles over Europe project I am especially interested in what entries he had in his logbook for 30 August 1940 with 222 Squadron as there is much confusion in records over their aircraft and pilot match-ups. Any help will be much appreciated.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 15th August 2018, 02:19
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 552
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Hello Howard,

Thanks for that. In October I would be interested to learn if you find anything about K9825 (8 April to 26 May 1940) or his Spitfire on 30 August 1940.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 18th August 2018, 16:20
Matheson Matheson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Matheson is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Will do Martin. I have 5 photos of his crash landing near the paper mills at Sittingbourne on 30 Aug 1940. the serial I was given was P9443. I will check the accuracy of this with his log. Regards, Howard
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 19th August 2018, 04:32
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 552
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Hello Howard,

the reason I am so interested in his aircraft on 30 August 1940 is because primary (22 Sqn. ORB and the AIR 81 casualty file) and published sources record his Spitfire serial number as P9443. However this aircraft was a write-off because of the damage it suffered this day.

According to the same sources P9375 was supposed to have been the mount of P/O Carpenter (also 222 Sqn.) this same day. Carpenter baled out but actually P9375 was repaired, later returned to 222 Sqn. and flew with an OTU into 1941.

I think Carpenter baled out of P9443 (total loss) and Matheson crash-landed in P9375 (repaired).

Do the photos show a serial number or individual letter on the fuselage side ? How damaged does the Spitfire appear ?

Regards,

Martin.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 19th August 2018, 14:46
Matheson Matheson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Matheson is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Martin I think the number I was given through a friend with a connection to the RAF Historical section is a typo as the plane was written off. so must have actually been P9443.

I can send photos if you like.

Howard

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Gleeson View Post
Hello Howard,

the reason I am so interested in his aircraft on 30 August 1940 is because primary (22 Sqn. ORB and the AIR 81 casualty file) and published sources record his Spitfire serial number as P9443. However this aircraft was a write-off because of the damage it suffered this day.

According to the same sources P9375 was supposed to have been the mount of P/O Carpenter (also 222 Sqn.) this same day. Carpenter baled out but actually P9375 was repaired, later returned to 222 Sqn. and flew with an OTU into 1941.

I think Carpenter baled out of P9443 (total loss) and Matheson crash-landed in P9375 (repaired).

Do the photos show a serial number or individual letter on the fuselage side ? How damaged does the Spitfire appear ?

Regards,

Martin.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 19th August 2018, 21:46
Martin Gleeson Martin Gleeson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 552
Martin Gleeson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Hello Howard,

that would be great re. the photos and much appreciated.

I have also sent you a private message using the PM system.

Regards,

Martin.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 1st December 2018, 13:41
Matheson Matheson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 17
Matheson is on a distinguished road
Re: Spitfire K9820 and others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Gleeson View Post
Hello Howard,

Thanks for the very interesting contribution. Is GC a relative ?

As far as I know this is a ‘new’ Spitfire accident to most of us. There is no F.1180 accident report and no mention of it in the 19 Squadron Operational Record Book. Some units, including 19 Sqn., were reluctant to report all their prangs. I would like to identify this Spitfire if possible. I suspect, but cannot prove, it might be K9825. 19 Squadron only reported operational sorties in their F.541 ‘Detail of Work Carried Out’ part of the ORB. K9825 is last shown flying operationally on 8 April 1940 and does not appear again until 26 May. The Form 78 aircraft history card for K9825 provides no help unfortunately.
Did GC record any flights – these would be non-operational – in K9825 between 8 April and 26 May 1940 ?

As part of my research into RAF losses during 1939-1940 for the Eagles over Europe project I am especially interested in what entries he had in his logbook for 30 August 1940 with 222 Squadron as there is much confusion in records over their aircraft and pilot match-ups. Any help will be much appreciated.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.
I now have an explanation of this event.

I have recently beeen loaned GC Matheson's pilot logbooks and a large box of related air force books from his widow's collection.

Tucked inside the book, "Fighter Squadron" by Derek Palmer was a letter, a typescript page and copy of a Peter Howard-Williams photograph that included Geoffrey Matheson.


Letter from Derek Palmer to Margo Legg,

<Snip> Peter Howard-Williams did a long audio tape (it is unclear when he recorded this - H) which I transcribed over about six or seven pages. I have enclosed the page which refers to Geoff. ys. DP

<Snip> "I remember coming back to Duxford from Horsham St Faith, it was quite late in the evening and I was flying number two to Matheson. We had left Horsham a little late and we hadn't any night flying facilities at Duxford for landing at night. And Matty, as he was known, wanted to go via his girlfriend's house and beat up the house which we duly did. When we got back it was pretty dark and when I came into land I hit some obstruction in the middle of the airfield that was marking some damp patches. I didn't damage anything but you couldn't see these obstructions because it was too dark. I remember Matty got a bollocking for that."

Matheson's diary seems to suggest that it was the other way around and they were returning to Horsham St Faith from Duxford. He doesn't mention the diversion of beating up his girlfriend's house on this occasion but this may have been noticed and reported to the C.O. explaining his annoyance!

These accounts also differ in regard to the extent of damage - if any.

This was 21st April 1940 so the ORB and or MT pages may indicate which aircraft Peter Howard-Williams (The C.O., G. Stephenson's) was flying on this occasion. Matheson was in L1031 which he seems to have taken over from Douglas Bader when he was with 19 Squadron. Clearly a talisman for him as he did the same with Bader's first 222 squadron Spitfire P9443.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:03.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net