Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19th July 2019, 15:16
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,377
steve sheridan
Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Hi does anybody have loss report for 9/KG4 19.9.43. He111 5J+ET hit by flak circa 07.20 - 08.36hrs.Ret to land at Smolensk.

Obgefr. Herbert Goller and Fw.Heinrich Schwatter wounded.

Any help would be appreciated.
Steve.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 19th July 2019, 15:45
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 2,742
Matti Salonen is on a distinguished road
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Although the GQM says Jägerbeschuß, the NVM gives "Baumberührung nach Start infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch < 10 %." Also the code seems to be 5J+CT and WNr. 7040 (He 111 H-6). Location Jelnja.

Matti
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 19th July 2019, 16:19
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,211
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Matti

Is there a possibillity two aircraft were involved in mishaps this day?
I notice (in another request by Steve) you did not recognize the name Heinrich Schwatter, so what does NVM say regarding the crew of WNr 7040?

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 19th July 2019, 16:21
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,377
steve sheridan
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Many thanks for the information Matti.
The source of the lead is from Schwatter's flugbuch which gives a/c code as 5J=ET and Flaktreffer as the cause.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 19th July 2019, 16:29
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,377
steve sheridan
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Hi Matti, the main source of the casualties comes from Karl Gunderlach's Kampfgeschwader 4" General Wever" book. Both wounded.
Schwatter relates in his flugbuch as either himself or Goller was wounded in the head.

Interesting proposal Stig, perhaps two a/c damaged.
Best regs,
Steve.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 19th July 2019, 16:40
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 2,742
Matti Salonen is on a distinguished road
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

It is probable that there were two aircraft. The NVM has not Schwatter (Schwätter?) but only Goller as follows:

1943-09-19, 9./KG 4, He 111 H-6, 7040, 5J+CT, Jelnja
Bordschütze Ogfr Goller, Herbert, verletzt
Baumberührung nach Start infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch < 10 %.

Matti
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 19th July 2019, 16:53
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,708
Jim P.
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

There's also this loss for 9./KG 4 for 19-Sep-43. This one seems to match the situation, but not the name.

He 111H-, , n.n., , III., 9., KG 4, , , , , 19-Sep-43, Hit obstruction. Bs WIA., , Lfl.6/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #12)-Vol.23, , Jelnja, <10%, H, Bs Ogefr. Erich Unterdörfel, ,
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 19th July 2019, 17:18
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 2,742
Matti Salonen is on a distinguished road
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

From the NVM I have:

1943-09-17, 7./KG 4, He 111 H-16, 161357, 5J+IR, Bei Jelnja
Bordschütze Ogfr Unterdörfel, Erich,
Jägerbeschuß. Bruch ? %.

GQM gives this 1943-09-19, 9./KG 4. Don't know, why there is such discrepancy between NVM and GQM data.

Matti
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 19th July 2019, 17:47
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,211
Stig Jarlevik is on a distinguished road
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Very interesting reading

Thanks Jim (and Matti of course) for bringing up the second machine supposedly damaged that day.

It feels like we have a Russian strafing attack on Jelnja in the morning of the 19th (GQM), with two aircraft being hit, and one which also manage to take off, hitting some trees while doing so. Perhaps even a third aircraft was involved somewhere (Steve's 5J+ET)?

Can this be verified, or is NVM right and we are talking about two dates, 17th and 19th?

Cheers
Stig
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 19th July 2019, 17:48
steve sheridan steve sheridan is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 1,377
steve sheridan
Re: Heinkel 111 casualty 19.9.43 9/KG4.

Thanks guys, appears ive opened up a can of worms with these!

Kindest regs,
Steve.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heinkel 111 Raid 'Feb-June' 1941 - Hunstanton, Norfolk - Confirmation ? Hornchurch Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 5th July 2019 23:22
Low Fuel lights - Heinkel He 111 H Adriano Baumgartner Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 21st June 2017 15:39
We need some help regarding KG 40 Bordeaux-Merignac hans_wittman Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 35 23rd September 2015 04:22
Heinkel 111 Z Prodlist (Update) Dan Gilberti Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 9 27th August 2011 10:51
Luftwaffe Ju 88 in Italy, July 1940 edNorth Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 12 16th August 2010 04:40


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net