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  #11  
Old 1st March 2005, 18:10
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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John
It is a set of excel sheets, one for each day between 6 June and 31 August 1944. Each one has details of all known claims (destroyed only) and losses of both Allies and Germans. This once had to be included in the Dave's book but he did bot do that due to his concerns of copyright violation, unsubstantiated IMHO.
A very useful tool in research but of course not the final word on the subject. I have to say it was a very refreshing experience to me and I am most grateful to Dave for making the file available.
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  #12  
Old 2nd March 2005, 05:56
Leo Etgen Leo Etgen is offline
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Wurmheller

Hi

Concerning Wurmheller's demise, most sources do state that he was killed in a collision with his wing man but I do remember that some time ago on this discussion board there was an interesting thread that provided a very credible argument that he was indeed shot down and killed by F/O JW Fleming of 411 Sqn, RCAF while escorting fighter-bombers. Due to this latest research, it now seems as if that was what really happened to him. However, would not one good way to attempt to find out if he was killed in a collision would be to search the Luftwaffe loss lists for the other aircraft involved, the one that collided with his? It should appear listed as well as his does.

Horrido!

Leo
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  #13  
Old 2nd March 2005, 07:02
NickM NickM is offline
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Christer:a funny thing about LW vets in Normandy.

After reading your 'Graf/Grislawski', and some other commentary from JG51 vets who's staffel was attached to II/JG1 during Normandy, it seemed that more than a few LW pilots who were vets of the Soviet front, felt that flying with small numbers (Rotte or schwarm) was better in Normandy because it kept them from being spotted too easily & it made it easier to 'sneak up' on allied formations...at least that was the impression that I got! Naturally I could have misunderstood;

thx

NickM

PS: Christer, Franek...you two have to 'chill out' a bit---I sense strong currents in the dark side of the Force between you!
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  #14  
Old 2nd March 2005, 10:20
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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One of the points IIRC was that the Fleming's victim exploded in the air. There is only one candidate for the collision, Uffz. Mayer of 9. Staffel, but he is reported to be lost in another location. Of course we cannot exclude the pilot in question survived or was reported on another date.

Nick
I suppose one of the reason was lack of tactical knowledge and experience in flying large formations. Dog fight in squadron strenght is a little bit more complicated than the one of a section of two.

PS I always thought Skywalker's character was childish and stupid. Anyway I consider this thread closed because Christer did not manage to prove his point German 'superaces' were downed because overwhelming numerical superiority of Allies.
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  #15  
Old 2nd March 2005, 13:33
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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There is no need to close this thread. If it has served (or missed) its purpose it will die from natural causes.

Although I will try to honor all requests to lock, split or edit material if the need arrises, such requests should not be a one sided affair if it is a thread with more people involved.

IMHO it is a shame that the basic discussion is being splintered. A long thread is not a real problem, as long as the flow is logical.

IF a new branch is started, include a link to the original thread and try to include some reason why you've decided to split the discussion from the original thread.

Shows that I am lagging badly on a guidelines doc.

But I am an advocate of laissez-faire...
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  #16  
Old 2nd March 2005, 13:57
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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I am not talking about any administrative steps like closing the thread, just only I do not see any point in continuing it (ie. making posts here) if the questions were answered. Of course if new evidence appears, someone may post here again. That is a forum, is not it?
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  #17  
Old 2nd March 2005, 14:14
dahiot daniel's Avatar
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Hptm Smisch it 8 June 1944

That was Katschmarek of Hptm Smisch it 8 June 1944.

Seven pilots of JG are going losses this 8 June to the east and to the north of Rennes. Some KIA are identified, I research names of the other pilots.

Pilot ? bailed out : Châtillon en Vendelais
Pilot ? bailed out : Erbré
Pilot ? bailed out : Saint Didier
Pilot ? bailed out : Louvigné du Désert
Hptm. Simsch Siegfried : KIA at St. M'Hervé
Uffz. Schüler Günther : KIA at Princé
Uffz. Folger Alfred : KIA at St. M'Hervé

merci
Dan
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  #18  
Old 2nd March 2005, 14:15
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Sorry, my mistake.
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  #19  
Old 2nd March 2005, 19:13
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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To return to the original topic:

Don Caldwell provides us with an interesting research result on the circumstances during the death of another German “super veteran” -Hptm. Emil Lang (403 combat missions, 173 victories) - in the West on 3 September 1944:

Three (or maybe six) Fw 190s led by Lang were bounced by 338 Sqn/55 FG (8th AF) and RAF ADGB 41 Squadron - altogether maybe something like 25 Allied fighters, resulting in two German and one Allied fighter getting shot down.

The Mustangs of 338 Sqn/55 FG (8th AF) - i.e. probably 15 to 18 Mustangs - attacked the formation of three Fw 190s led by Lang, and after Lang’s undercarriage and fallen down he was shot down and killed. This matches with the claims made by 338 Sqn/55 FG. But then one of Lang’s wingmen shot down a Spitfire, whose pilot was buried at the same place. That led Don to find another Allied unit participating in the attack against Lang’s formation: RAF ADGB 41 Squadron, which reported eight Spitfire XIIs attacking three Fw 190s in the same area. Don speculates that there may have been an additional Kette of three Fw 190s, which is not mentioned in the German report. (Caldwell, “JG 26 War Diary”, Vol. II, p. 343.)

Of course the Allies weren’t always able to make use of their numerical superiority. To quote Don Caldwell again, this time concerning 18 June 1944: “Addi Glunz took Uffz. Lissack, a young 7th Staffel pilot on a two-airplane evening sweep. They encountered a pair of tactical reconnaissance Mustangs from No. 414 Sqd. (RCAF) and shot them both down. The more experienced of the Geschwader’s pilots could best most Allied pilots in single combat, but such opportunities came rarely.” (Caldwell, “JG 26 War Diary”, Vol. II, pp. 281 - 282.)


In some cases, the Allied failure to make use of their numerical superiority did not work against the Allies. In order to pour some oil on troubled waters, I would like to repeat that I find no reason to question Franek’s claim that III./JG 1’s Hptm. Weber was shot down in a combat between 10 Bf 109s and 4 Polish Mustangs. In other words, I find no problem in admitting that Franek has convinced me in this particular case. So what? I am not personally involved.

In other cases, the numerical superiority would not save the Allies from sustaining bitter losses - like on US 4th FG’s last mission on 6 June 1944. David Clark writes that “P-51s of 334th FS, 335th FS and 336th FS of the US 8th AF 4th FG tangled with 10 Fw 190s. . .” (“Angels Eight”, p. 42.) I don’t know why Clark states that 10 P-51s were lost - due to “mechanical failure, a collision and heavy flak”. 4th FG’s report clearly states that there were “only” seven losses, and that most - if not all - were shot down by German fighters:

“Fifteen 109s and 190s bounced them out of the cloud cover. The entire section, consisting of Bernard McGratten, Harold Ross, Walter Smith, and Cecil Garbey, was shot down and all four pilots were killed. Later, at 2035 hours, Edward Stepp was heard over the radio to say to Mike Sobanski "Watch those behind you White Leader!" after Sobanski had requested a visual check of his aircraft after hitting some wires. Both were killed. As if that were not enough, Mike McPharlin, who was visiting his old squad, the 334th, on loan from the 339th Fighter Group in his 6N-Z, was lost after reporting his left magneto was out and he was aborting. He wanted to fly "the big one" with his old buddies. He was never heard from again. The totals for D-Day, 4 destroyed, 9 lost. Seven of the losses were on the final mission of the day.”

Obviously, Clark made a mistake when he placed this disastrous combat at “just after noon”, since the 4th FG report clearly states that it was “The last mission of the day [which also] was the worst for the 4th since its inception when 12 Spitfire MkIXs were lost near Morlaix, France”- i.e. at between 2030 and 2100 hours.

The “fifteen 109s and 190s” which bounced 4th FG clearly were a composite formation from JG 2 and 2./JG 26, led by Hptm. Herbert Huppertz. These German pilots claimed six Mustangs, one Thunderbolts and three Typhoons during this mission (of which Huppertz contributed a Mustang and a Thunderbolt). In all, these German pilots were engaged by at least the Mustangs of 4th and 352nd FG, the Thunderbolts of 56 FG, and Typhoons of 2nd TAF. Probably they were engaged by even further Allied units on this day - when the Luftwaffe fighters in France performed a total of 172 sorties throughout the day (divided between at least 13 separate missions from 0800 hrs to midnight ), versus 14,674 Allied sorties (including 2,185 by US 8th AF fighters) over the landing region.


All best,

Christer Bergström

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/...-ace/index.htm
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  #20  
Old 3rd March 2005, 11:44
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christer Bergström
To return to the original topic:
Don Caldwell provides us with an interesting research result on the circumstances during the death of another German “super veteran” -Hptm. Emil Lang (403 combat missions, 173 victories) - in the West on 3 September 1944:
I am not sure what does it have to the subject, Lang was killed already after the Normandy Campaign. Anyway I have no possibility to check any documents to verify the course of the combat.

Quote:
Of course the Allies weren’t always able to make use of their numerical superiority. To quote Don Caldwell again, this time concerning 18 June 1944: “Addi Glunz took Uffz. Lissack, a young 7th Staffel pilot on a two-airplane evening sweep. They encountered a pair of tactical reconnaissance Mustangs from No. 414 Sqd. (RCAF) and shot them both down. The more experienced of the Geschwader’s pilots could best most Allied pilots in single combat, but such opportunities came rarely.” (Caldwell, “JG 26 War Diary”, Vol. II, pp. 281 - 282.)
I cannot say FR Mustangs were fair opponent for the Germans. Always in unfavourable position, pilots trained to reconnaisance and not to dog-fight, sometimes not fit to fighter units.

Quote:
In other cases, the numerical superiority would not save the Allies from sustaining bitter losses - like on US 4th FG’s last mission on 6 June 1944. David Clark writes that “P-51s of 334th FS, 335th FS and 336th FS of the US 8th AF 4th FG tangled with 10 Fw 190s. . .” (“Angels Eight”, p. 42.) I don’t know why Clark states that 10 P-51s were lost - due to “mechanical failure, a collision and heavy flak”. 4th FG’s report clearly states that there were “only” seven losses, and that most - if not all - were shot down by German fighters:
The black day of 4FG is a quite well known episode but I would not follow your conclusions as to units engaged. It was a real mess. It is interesting to note that the German unit, JG2, performed quite well on the Invasion Front, despite not having Eastern Front experience.
I may add, that on the next day 355FG was also hit hard. But could you explain me what are you going to prove?
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