7 Feb 10 -Overclaimers v Reliable Claimers List

[GMichalski]

Hi,
I'm glad that you speak of the Japanese, I'm trying to make a list like this with pilots from various countries Germany, England, France, Italy, USA, Japan, Finland ..... as I am Spanish, spanish pilots also
do you have something about H. Nishizawa or S. Anabuki
regards

[Rob Romero]

Sorry no. I only post information as I come across it.

[Szkieletor]

Hi,
I found very interesting information here: http://albindenis.free.fr/Site_escad...s_Guynemer.htm
It looks like 45 of 53 (85%) Georges Guynemer victories were confirmed by the German archives.

[Rob Romero]

Thank you for that Szkieletor!

[GMichalski]

thanks a lot,
it will go to the 1WW list
regards

[GMichalski]

hi,
these days i see JG 53, in general reliable...
and also thought that JG 2 would be worse, i think some pilots gave a bad name to the whole squad.....
JG 77 does not look bad in general, similar to jg 2...
generally the problem I see is that in Russia claims there are no info to verify....
regards

[Oberst]

Thats becouse the Russians will never ever admit to anything, documents or otherwise. And if they do, its totally unreliable.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by Oberst

Thats becouse the Russians will never ever admit to anything, documents or otherwise. And if they do, its totally unreliable.

I hope you are talking of Soviet-era documents. I agree these are mainly propaganda and totally unreliable.

But modern Russian historians having access to military archives are AFAIK not worse or better than those of other countries. And most of the Soviet aircraft losses can be found in the archive. If they are inferior to German claims, overclaiming is probably more frequent than record falsification by Russian.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Hello, friends!

Problem of overclaiming is a small part of the air war history only. But if it interesting for some forum participants, some data:

When I wrote the book about Kerch-Eltigen landing operation, I analyzed losses of the Soviet Air Forces during that battle. Day-by-day records, with all available documents in army and naval archives (TsAMO and TsVMA), including acts of investigation of losses of individual planes, etc.
Scope is 1.Nov-11.Dec.1943, Kertch peninsula, Taman peninsula and nearest waters. From Soviet side, 4.Air Army and part of Black Sea Fleet's Air Forces took part.

Real losses (shot down + crash landed and assumed as total loss + force-landed outside airfields but repairable or almost undamaged at all):
By fighters and air gunners: 93 + 21 + 19
By ground fire: …………………..77 + 27 + 43
Accidents *…………………………15 + 03 + 18
* Accidents in combat missions, but totally without enemy fire. For example, if hydraulic system was damaged in dogfight and then aircraft crashed during landing on it’s airfield, I counted it as combat loss, not accident.

FTR (failed to return) category is divided between fighters and Flak according to time of loss in comparison with German claims, according to reports of observers from army and naval signal posts of both sides, from other air units etc. Due to small square of the operation and due to big number of evidences most cases are divided between fighters and Flak without problem.

German claims:
I./JG52, II./JG52 - according to Barbas's volumes, 15./JG52 - from well-known Wood's tables (only claims in area in question, without Nord Crimea and Ukraine).
Flak claims - from daily reports (Tagesmeldungen) of German V.Armee Korps (defender of Kerch peninsula) and 9.Flak-Division. Also, in Tagesmeldungen of V.AK mentioned fighter claims, which in some cases differ a bit from Barbas/Woods data.
Single-motor fighters claims: 277 (257 according to V.AK). By the way, it is more than 1/3 single-motor fighter claims of the whole East Front (incl.Arctic) for the time in question.
Also, some claims were from Bf110 (NJG200), from Bombers/Stukas air gunners, precise number still unknown
Flak claims: 107 (according to V.AK, probably including few infantry claims)
Also, few claims from Kriegsmarine.
I think that total number is ~400.

So, 218 a/c (93+21+77+27) were totally destroyed due to enemy fire, ~1:2 in comparison with German claims
But if for Flak this ratio is almost 1:1, for fighters (incl. air gunners and Bf110) ratio is more than 1:2.5.

Few episodes are still uncertain, but without serious influence on the ratio.
I think when JFV12/II will be ready, some of these episodes will be resolved.

Soviet fighter’s overclaims were far higher, of course, but counting of exact ratio is impossible because GQM loss reports for Nov.-Dec.1943 were partly on missed 1944 lists.

Best regards,
Andrey

[Rob Romero]

Good stuff Andrey! Were you able to get more detailed breakdowns of specific engagements?