Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East

Japanese and Allied Air Forces in the Far East Please use this forum to discuss the Air War in the Far East.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 20th February 2009, 10:34
Jan Gazda Jan Gazda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 103
Jan Gazda is on a distinguished road
Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

In John Stanaway´s Osprey title Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces of Pacific and CBI there is a mention of a mock combat the CO of the 9 FS/49 FG Gerald Johnson had in P 38 with an unspecified P-51. Johnson reportedly "bested" the P 51D to the point where he followed his opponent through every attempted evasive manoeuvre with one of the P 38´s engines shut down! Does anyone have some details to this mock fight as to when and where and who was the opponent?

Jan
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 20th February 2009, 13:40
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posts: 1,613
Graham Boak is on a distinguished road
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

[quote=Johnson reportedly "bested" the P 51D to the point where he followed his opponent through every attempted evasive manoeuvre with one of the P 38´s engines shut down!
Jan[/quote]

And you believed this?

Just how heavy is a P-38 compared to a P-51? So with very similar power, how much poorer the Power to Weight ratio - hence how much poorer the acceleration, climb, turn?

It is certainly likely that a good pilot experienced on a P-38 could outperform a P-51 in lesser hands: that should not be in dispute. But not on one engine.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 20th February 2009, 16:15
Jan Gazda Jan Gazda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 103
Jan Gazda is on a distinguished road
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

Yes, that is exactly what I thought but Stanaway is a respected author so I didn´t want to dismiss this story right away..

Jan
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 20th February 2009, 17:32
Graham Boak Graham Boak is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Lancashire, UK
Posts: 1,613
Graham Boak is on a distinguished road
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

I suspect it of being inflated rather than total fantasy. It could simply be that the P-51 pilot was poor to the point of incompetence - or at least highly inexperienced. However, there are ways of minimising the penalty: start with a heavy P-51 and a light P-38. Keep the fight hard-turning to low and slow, where the drag difference (the P-38 has more than twice the zero-lift drag of a P-51) was less significant, and so that the P-51 couldn't just dive away - the P-38 was poor in the dive. This would eventually lead to both fighters falling out of the sky, or perhaps a slow scissors combat.... Even then, the P-51 would have been able to simply climb away. However, as this would not be recommended in real combat because it would make an easy shot, so perhaps the P-51 pilot didn't try it for that very reason. The P-51 was not the best climbing fighter.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24th February 2009, 06:54
JACK COOK JACK COOK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Salem, OR USA
Posts: 230
JACK COOK
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

Actually this really happened but there were 2 dogfights and the story are sorta mested together. I asked my buddy John who probably knows more about Johnson that anyone been a close friend of his widow Barbara and author of his autobiography. The dogfights happened in July 45 and were P-51 vs P-38 and P-38 vs P-38 and the opposing pilot was Gerald's brother Harold who was a pilot in the 348th FG. Harold had been a P-51 OTU instructor and was a very good pilot. Gerald won the first engagement easily probably due to his combat exoerience but the 2nd was a balls out no holds bared duel fought to a draw. Afterwards Gerald complimented Harold on his use of the P-38s combat flaps to which Harold (on his 2nd P-38 flight) replied "what are combat flaps??"

L/C Gerald "Ged" Johnson CO 49th FG 1945
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24th February 2009, 15:29
Jim Oxley's Avatar
Jim Oxley Jim Oxley is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia
Posts: 525
Jim Oxley is on a distinguished road
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

Jack are you talking about the book "Jungle Ace"? If so please pass on my thanks to John Bruning. He really has done a wonderful job on an outstanding pilot and leader.

it's a marvellous read.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24th February 2009, 17:37
JACK COOK JACK COOK is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Salem, OR USA
Posts: 230
JACK COOK
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

Yup that's John. He's focused on Iraq and the war on terror having dome 4 books on the subject inc Devil's Sandbox, House to House and How To Break A Terrorist which made the NY Times Brest Sellers list.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 26th February 2009, 00:01
drgondog's Avatar
drgondog drgondog is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 892
drgondog is on a distinguished road
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

I can buy a 38 outflying a 51 due to pilot skill.

Nobody is going to convince me that the 38 pilot beats a 51 with one engine out - particularly in the vertical or horizontal (into bad engine).
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 27th February 2009, 11:00
Jan Gazda Jan Gazda is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 103
Jan Gazda is on a distinguished road
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

Thank you all for your inputs, they were very interesting. Also of an interest is the snapshot Jack Cook posted since I have always seen Johnson credited with 22 kills and the P 38 he is standing to clearly has 23 Japanese flags painted on it. Was it a ground victory or a claim that was later downgraded?

Jan
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 27th February 2009, 15:55
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
Posts: 2,130
John Beaman is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Jerry Johnson´s mock combat with P 51

According to Frank Olynyk's Stars and Bars, his claims list has several "probables". Perhaps, at the time of the photo, he had one of these on that machine.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
MARSEILLE his last kill david Cotton Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 59 23rd March 2012 21:08
VVS operations 6-8 may & 8-10 june 1943, claims and losses. Evgeny Velichko Allied and Soviet Air Forces 78 18th August 2009 16:16
Was Fw. Werner Stapel JG52 an ace? Rob Romero Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 25th August 2008 04:37
Me 410 ZG 76 non combat losses Peter Kassak Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 6 23rd August 2007 08:39
Mock combat Tempest V vs. Dora 13 Yves Marino Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 20 5th December 2006 20:25


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net