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Old 9th May 2005, 05:29
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

By checking the three printed sources on Soviet aces available to me (two in English and one in Russian), I noticed that there were a few claims against (P.Z.L.) 'P.24'. It must have been a confusion with the similarly looking P.11s.

Here is what I wrote in the (preliminary version of an) article manuscript I am currently working on.
"It has to be noted that Soviet pilots did claim several ‘P.24s’ (most probably a confusion with the very similarly looking P.11). All known claims filed in 1941 against P.24s were done by members of the 55th IAP, based at Beltsi (Bălţi) airfield, in Bessarabia, near the Rumanian frontier, equipped with a mixture of I-153s, I-16s and MiG-3s. For example, Ml. Lt. Leonid Dyachenko claimed a P.24 in June or July 1941 aboard his MiG-3. His ‘polk-mate’, St. Lt. Kuzma Y. Selivestrov, reported to shot down a’P.24’ while flying his MiG-3, No. 12, on 28 June 1941. A famous Soviet ace, Kpt. Grigoriy A. Rechkalov of the same IAP, scored a victory over a ‘P.24’ also on 28 June 1941, while flying an obsolescent I-153 biplane (on 28 June, two ARR P.11s were lost to enemy fighters). Polkovnik Alexandr Pokryshkyn - second highest scoring VVS ace - also claimed a ‘P.24’ in 1941, while flying a MiG-3 as part of the same 55th IAP.
Ml. Lt. Fyodor F. Arkhipenko of the 27th IAP lists a P.24 in his overall tally. Reportedly, he scored his kill as late as 15 April 1944 (!) in the area of Jassy (Iaşi), in Moldavia. Even Ivan N. Kozhedub, the top scoring Soviet ace, had a P.24 on it’s tally, claimed in early 1944. Curiously, in the type-written list of claims, included in his notebook and recently published in a Russian book on Soviet aces, the P.24 is crossed out with a pen and replaced with… Me 262!"


Would it be possible for someone to check the claims of the 55th IAP, most notably for 28 June 1941? Are there any other claims of 'P.24's by other units?
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Old 9th May 2005, 07:51
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Dénes,

What is the "recently published ... Russian book on Soviet aces" that you mentioned? Title, author, etc. And where did you obtain it?

Frank.
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Old 9th May 2005, 08:59
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Hi Denes,

The exact date of Kozhedub's 'PZL-24' claim is 11 April 1944, place - Syrka (sorry don't know correct is this or not), time 17.50.

The archive sources about 55 iap claims of summer 1941 are very contradictory.

Seliverstov claims 1 'PZL-24' on 26.06.41, but in other source the date is 25.06 and the type - 'Me-109'...
Viktorov also claims 1 'PZL-24' on 26.06.41, but in other source it's listed as 'Me-109'...
Diachenko claims 1 'PZL-24' on 27.06.41, but in other source it's listed as 'Hs-126'...
Seliverstov claims next 1 'PZL-24' on 03.07.41, but in other source it's listed as 'PZL-37'!..
Pokryshkin claims 1 'PZL-24' on 03.07.41...
Svetlichnyi claims 1 'PZL-24' on 03.07.41...
Grachev claims 1 'PZL-24' on 26.07.41...

Except 'PZL-24's there are also several 'PZL-23's in victory list of 55 iap ...

Several other VVS iaps claimed 'PZL-24's, most of them in summer 1941. For example, 146 iap has no less then 5 'PZL-24's on it's claim list (and several 'SET-7's)!
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Last edited by MB; 9th May 2005 at 16:12.
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Old 9th May 2005, 14:56
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Olynyk
Dénes,

What is the "recently published ... Russian book on Soviet aces" that you mentioned? Title, author, etc. And where did you obtain it?
The book I was referring to is the one authored by Bodrikhin and published in 1997 (I meant to imply to the reader that it's not an old, Soviet-era publication, but a recent one, based on historical research, not propaganda).
BTW, it's the same book I've shown to you when we met here in Toronto last year.
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Old 9th May 2005, 19:04
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Thanks, MB, for the very interesting additional info.

Well, it seems like the combat diary (?) of the 55th IAP is indeed contradictory. I am not surprised, though, as I've found similar contradictions while studying the archival documents of the Rumanian, Bulgarian and Hungarian air forces.

I am surprised that the initial claims are for June 26 and 27, not 28, as the sources I consulted note. There was no P.11 loss on either of these dates. However - as I noted in my previous post - two P.11s were indeed lost in combat on June 28, 1941, so that should have been the proper claim date.

I am wondering if there is a published Russian source for the 55th IAP activity in 1941, both non-Russian authors took they information from. I would assume yes. If so, can someone point it out?

I would like to note that both P.Z.L. P.23 and P.37, as well as SET-7 types were in service with ARR, thus the Soviet fighter pilots' claims could have been accurate. I should check if there were indeed losses in those days, though.
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Old 9th May 2005, 20:07
Frank Olynyk Frank Olynyk is online now
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Dénes,
Well, I guess I don't have to search for a new book on Soviet aces. I just have to continue trying to find the "old" book, which I have been looking for for years in the (apparently) non-existant (or maybe non-Internet based) Russian used book market. *sigh* And if I could find it I would still have to translate it ...

Frank.
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Old 9th May 2005, 21:01
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád
I am wondering if there is a published Russian source for the 55th IAP activity in 1941, both non-Russian authors took they information from. I would assume yes. If so, can someone point it out?.
It's very sad, but such source for the 55th IAP activity in 1941 still not published yet But... Maybe this summer it WILL BE exist in Russia, I hope... But for it's best quality it's necessary to have the correct info about German and Romanian ( ) losses in the 55th IAP area of operations...
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Old 9th May 2005, 21:47
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Quote:
Originally Posted by MB
But for it's best quality it's necessary to have the correct info about German and Romanian ( ) losses in the 55th IAP area of operations...
I have both Luftwaffe and ARR losses (and victories) for the Southern area of the Eastern Front sorted out for 1941. So it should be no problem...
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Old 9th May 2005, 22:50
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

OK! But the main and constant problem is the lack of free time for that serious work...

A propos, about ARR...

On 2 July 1941 the flight of 3 I-16s of 168 iap claimed 1 enemy plane shot down in air combat SW of Lipkany, time 5.45-7.00. The type of that aircraft wasn't identificated, but the combat report of the day mentioned that this was a 'Romanian plane'... Have You any ideas what type that plane may be? Of course, it, maybe, was only damaged or even escaped unharmed...
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Old 10th May 2005, 01:22
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Soviet pilots' claims against 'P.24'

Quote:
OK! But the main and constant problem is the lack of free time for that serious work...
Tell me about it... You should see my desk, not to mention my agenda.

On July 2, three Rumanian airplanes were lost to enemy. Two were attacking Bulgarica airfield, in Southern Bessarabia, which is too far away from Lipcani. So the third one is the possible candidate.

It was an I.A.R. 39+, which force landed due to enemy fire at Ianova (?). I couldn't find this location, but it should not be far away from the Rumanian border, as two crewmembers returned to the base on foot.

In the area where Lipcani lies the Hungarian aviation was also active in 1941. By any chance, do you have any reference to any VVS claim made against Hungarian airplanes (FIAT CR-42, for example)?
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Last edited by Dénes Bernád; 10th May 2005 at 01:25.
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