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  #1  
Old 3rd June 2016, 13:58
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knusel knusel is offline
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French WW2 decimal score aces

Bonjour,

the scores of French WW2 aces are usually given with shares counted as full victories. For comparison I compiled a French ace list with shares counted as decimals. I also indicated the planes in which they scored 5 or more kills. I wish I knew if Henri Foucaud scored 5 kills in the Yak-9 and Jean Dugoujon's total is still a mystery to me.

Have a nice weekend,

Michael
  1. Clostermann, Pierre-Henri 20 [17+6] Spitfire and Tempest
  2. Demozay, Jean-Francois 18 [18+0] Hurricane and Spitfire
  3. André, Jacques 13,17 [11+5] Yak-3
  4. Albert, Marcel 13,07 [6+17] Yak-9
  5. le Gloan, Pierre 12,21 [8+10] D.520
  6. de la Poype, Roland 10,53 [7+9] Yak-3
  7. Plubeau, Camille 10 [8+6] P-36
  8. Littolf, Albert 9,45 [7+8] Hurricane
  9. Marchi, Roger 9,2 [6+7] Yak-3
  10. Sauvage, Roger 9,2 [3+13] Yak-3
  11. Gouby, Gabriel Robert 9 [9+0] Spitfire
  12. Perrin, Marcel 8,95 [6+7] Yak-3
  13. Lemare, Georges 8,83 [6+6] Yak-3
  14. Lefévre, Marcel 8,67 [7+4] Yak-9
  15. Denis, James 8,5 [8+1] Hurricane
  16. Cuffaut, Leon 8,33 [5+8] Yak-3
  17. Boudier, Michel 8 [8+0] Spitfire
  18. Castin, Robert 8 [6+4] Yak-3
  19. Challe, René 7,5 [7+1] Yak-3
  20. Marin la Meslée, Edmond 7,13 [4+12] P-36
  21. Blanck, Georges 7,08 [5+7] D.520
  22. Delfino, Louis 7,03 [3+12] ----
  23. Challe, Maurice 7 [5+5] Yak-3
  24. Montet, Lucien 7 [7+0] Spitfire
  25. Risso, Joseph 6,95 [5+6] ----
  26. Madon, Michel 6,91 [5+6] D.520
  27. Carbon, Yves 6,58 [6+2] ----
  28. Légrand, André 6,53 [6+3] P-36
  29. Moynet, Andre 6,5 [6+2] ----
  30. Martin, René Lucien 6,38 [5+6] Yak-3
  31. Lorillon, Pierre 6,17 [5+3] Yak-3
  32. Lefol, Georges 6,1 [4+8] P-36
  33. Matras, Pierre 6,08 [4+5] Yak-3
  34. Dorance, Michel 6,07 [3+11] P-36
  35. Andrieux, Jacques 6 [6+0] Spitfire
  36. Foucaud, Henri 6 [4+5] Yak-9 ?
  37. Amarger, Maurice 5,83 [4+4] Yak-3
  38. Duperier, Bernard 5,67 [5+2] ----
  39. Durand, Albert 5,67 [4+6] ----
  40. Mertzisen, Gabriel 5,58 [4+4] ----
  41. Thollon, Robert 5,58 [4+4] MB.152
  42. le Nigen, Edouard 5,56 [4+8] MS.406
  43. Iribarne, Robert 5,33 [4+3] ----
  44. Williame, Robert 5,28 [4+4] MS.406
  45. Boillot, Pierre 5,27 [2+11] ----
  46. Gauthier, Gabriel 5,2 [3+7] ----
  47. Bléton, Pierre 5,17 [4+3] Yak-3
  48. Castelain, Noel 5,17 [4+3] ----
  49. Bouguen, Marcel 5 [5+0] Spitfire
  50. Dietrich, Henri 5 [5+0] MB.152
  51. Miquel, Charles 5 [4+2] ----
  52. Dugoujon, Jean ???
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  #2  
Old 2nd August 2018, 09:45
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Good morning Gentlemen,

fron Many Souffan I learned that Foucaud scored all his kills in a Yak-9.

Clostermann's score is a mess in the sources:
This website says 17 but it includes 4 ground kills (3May1945) and two from his logbook =11
http://www.cieldegloire.com/004_clostermann.php
This website says 22 or 33
http://frenchaces.pagesperso-orange.fr/as/m+c.html
This website says 33 but it includes 6 shared 7 probables and one which is suggested by himself = 19+6sh
https://www.lesasdelaluftwaffe.fr/au...i-clostermann/
This website says 19+6sh with 12+6 in the Tempest which includes 1 probable = 18+6sh
http://www.hawkertempest.se/index.ph...53-clostermann
According to this website
http://www.pierre-clostermann.com/victoires.html
the French seem so have acknowledged 33 victories (19+14sh) whereas 23 kills seem to have been acknowledged by the RAF.
He seems to have conducted a lawsuit for that. I wonder if my French is sufficient to understand all that correctly.

Cheers,

Michael
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Old 2nd August 2018, 10:44
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Michael

As far as I know, the French (when on their own) did not acknowledge any shared victories.
If, let's say, five pilots shot down one aircraft each pilot received a full victory, but the unit as such only one.

This creates of course a problem since French pilots fought both with the British and the Russians, each nation with a different system to recognize an aerial victory. No matter how we count, we will simply not get it right!

Also don't forget, for political reasons, Charles de Gaulle needed the top ace during the war to have come from "his" side, ie Britain.

As far as I am concerned, Clostermann was a very good pilot and his book is brilliant, but I would like to know more about his relationship to de Gaulle.
It is no coincident that his final Tempest was dubbed Le Grand Charles....

Cheers
Stig
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Old 2nd August 2018, 14:57
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Hi

About Clostermann
Subject VERY,VERY "DELICATE" that the score of his "victories":everything and its opposite are said!on this "famous" real score!

For example,I have an established list(by a serious author) of 24 "victories" sures (18+6 shared).

About your old list (2016),I noticed several missing

Le Gloan:MS.406+D.520
Blanck.520+Spit
Madon.520+Spit
Boillot:MS.406+Spit
Lefevre:Yak-1+Yak-9T

etc.etc....

Michel
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Old 2nd August 2018, 15:01
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Sorry for the icons
Why they appear!!

michel
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Old 2nd August 2018, 15:05
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knusel knusel is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Dear Michel,

I think the misses you mentioned are because I indicated only those cases when an ace achieved 5 kills (shared kills counted as decimals) in the mentioned aircraft.
Would you mind posting the list of 18+6 Clostermann kills ?
I suppose it consists of 7 Spitfire kills and 11+6 Tempest kills ?

Have a nice afternoon,

Michael
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Old 2nd August 2018, 15:13
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Sorry for the icons
Why they appear!!

michel
Michel
They come up because you write
a) :
b) D
together. If you click on that particular smiley, you will see what happens in your writing box.

Cheers
Stig
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Old 2nd August 2018, 15:47
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

1°,27/07/43=Fw.190 S Trouville
2°,27/07/43=Fw.190 S Trouville
3°,27/08/43=Fw.190 St Pol-Mardyck
4°,15/06/44=Bf.109 St Andre de L'Eure
5°,26/06/44=Fw.190 Caen/Carpiquet
6°,29/06/44=Fw.190 N Rouen
7°,02/07/44=Fw.190 S Cabourg
8°,02/07/44=Fw.190 S Cabourg
9°,05/03/45=Bf.109 Nordhorn
10°,14/03/45=Bf.109 Hanovre
11°,28/03/45=Ju.88 (SHARED) Rheine Hopsten
12°,02/04/45=Fw.190 Aldhorn
13°,05/04/45=Ju.88 Wunstorf
14°,05/04/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Lac Dummer
15°,05/04/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Lac Dummer
16°,20/04/45=Ju.290 (SHARED) Skagerrac
17°,20/04/45=Fw.190 SE Hambourg
18°,20/04/45=Fw.190 SE Hambourg
19°,03/05/45=Fw.190 Kiel
20°,03/05/45=Ju.252 Grossembrode
21°,03/05/45=Do.24 Detroit Fenhmarn
22°,03/05/45=Do.24 Detroit Fenhmarn
23°,03/05/45=Bf.109 (SHARED) Grossembrode
24°,03/05/45=Fw.190(SHARED) Grossembrode

As you see it,this one is different from the one in Aces High,Tempest and typhoon Story,......

Michel
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Old 2nd August 2018, 18:37
Moriii Moriii is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Quote:
Originally Posted by knusel View Post
According to this website
http://www.pierre-clostermann.com/victoires.html
the French seem so have acknowledged 33 victories (19+14sh) whereas 23 kills seem to have been acknowledged by the RAF.
He seems to have conducted a lawsuit for that. I wonder if my French is sufficient to understand all that correctly.

That's pretty much it.


Closterman filled a lawsuit against a book published, I believe, in 1991. It's not clear when he went to court because the ruling dates from 2001. A copy of the ruling is at http://www.livresdeguerre.net/forum/...hp?index=37129
(this website, active 10 years ago, is far from reliable, but the copy/paste of the ruling is probably accurate).


The ruling itself is kind of strange. It blames the authors of the book for not making the effort of interviewing Clostermann himself. The ruling also says Closterman is a very respectable person (which he certainly was), suggesting that's enough a ground to assume he is right in all he says. The ruling doesn't say the sources the authors use or the analysis they make is flawed in any way, except they should _also_ have interviewed Clostermann...


There is some Streisand effect in going to court to start with. The book is long forgotten and seems all but impossible to find (it's not even at the BNF). It's hard to believe it had a wide distribution at the time of publication. The whole things sounds a lot like personal feud between Clostermann and one of the authors or the publisher. In all cases, the lawsuit draws attention to the reliability of Closterman ace claims, pretty much the opposite effect of what the plaintif wanted...
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Old 2nd August 2018, 18:55
Adriano Baumgartner Adriano Baumgartner is offline
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Re: French WW2 decimal score aces

Apparently NO Ju 290 recorded lost on the 20th April 1945...only recorded losses of type on the massive 2nd TAC by Shores and Thomas were on the night of 22nd April and 25th April...by Mosquitos (264 and 409 Sqdns)...so, do not know what was claimed...and no entry on the relevant ORB too regarding this claim or a possible ground victory either!

Imagine Historians being put on jail for writing and re-writing ancient History based on new archives or documents found!

Anyway, his claims (as others too) can be checked with relevant documents, etc...I have tried to match some, since I read and re-read his books, but it is a hard work.

Perhaps his Logbooks will be available for an accurate Historical Research, by accredited French Historians (we do have many to quote...)...maybe....

A.S.B.
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