Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 28th November 2017, 20:55
Roundway Roundway is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Roundway is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

Thank you for all your comments, gentlemen.

Chris. There were no radio transmissions according to the F1180; it simply records A/C missing in transit with 11 casualties.

Weather is certainly another option; the chart at the time the aircraft left Portreath showed an active frontal system approaching 10W. From the information available I'd estimate the freezing level to be 8000-10000 ft, so icing might have had a role to play.

If the F1180 is to be believed although the pilot had 129 hours on type, and the co-pilot 350, neither had any night-flying experience on type - which seems a little strange.

Col. I suspect that all RAF/RAFVR personnel were listed as members of 271 Squadron for the duration of the flight irrespective of their normal unit. F/O W M Henderson (132361), for example, was a meteorologist en route to a Mediterranean posting. If that is the case then the CWGC's error is in listing Cashmore's death as being on the 21st instead of the 19th.

Dan. Thanks for the additional information about Lt Andrew Jervis Hawkins, RN.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 29th November 2017, 06:18
Col Bruggy Col Bruggy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 890
Col Bruggy is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

Rainer,

I had already checked your passenger list for the S.S."Strathallan". I also checked the passenger listing, here:

http://thestrathallan.com/PDF/Crew_%...justed2017.pdf

I couldn't find mention of Cashmore in either of them, hence his prescence on the Strathallan was mentioned merely as a possibility.

I did not have access to the F1180, that Brian quotes from, which mentions 11 casualties aboard Harrow K7011. Most of the references I had seen mentioned 10 casualties, ie 4 crew & 6 passengers. What swayed my judgement a little was the fact that the CWGC quoted the date of death for Cashmore as 21 December, 1942, plus the fact that there was at least two members (Alf BLACKETT & Norman LENNOX), of No.2771 RAF Sqn Regt on the Strathallan.

I have a open mind on the matter, if Cashmore is proven to have been aboard K7011, that's fine by me.

Col.

Last edited by Col Bruggy; 1st December 2017 at 03:04.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 29th November 2017, 18:09
Roundway Roundway is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Roundway is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

Col

The 271 Squadron ORB is not a great deal of help in respect of the total number of bodies on board K7011 when it left Portreath.

The history of the flight starts at 1445 hours on 9 December when K7011 left Doncaster to reposition at Hendon. On the 11th it left Hendon at 1400 hours, bound for Portreath carrying 6 passengers and 300 lbs of kit.

When it left Portreath on the 19th the load was the same, 6 passengers and 300 lbs of kit.

So the crucial question as to whether there were 10 or 11 bodies on board revolves round the number of crew members - 4 or 5. There was a discussion about this on RAF Commands nine years ago, but no answer was forthcoming
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/sho...ey-Page-Harrow

I've tried finding a definitive answer on the Internet, but every item concentrates on the five-man crew required for the bomber version of the type

The F1180 for K7011 names two pilots, S/L C A Brown and Flt Lt E T Halley; there would certainly have been a navigator and wireless operator, but what would a fifth man have done?

Whatever, if the manifest records six passengers and the F1180 records 11 casualties, there should have been five crew.

The only additional information provided by the ORB is Aircraft reported missing vide No 1 OADU signal T.O.O. 1000 hours 21 December 1942.

Probably a long shot, but I'll order copies of the relevant pages from Kew.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 29th November 2017, 18:56
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,534
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

I will ask AHB to look at Cas Cards
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 29th November 2017, 20:35
Roundway Roundway is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Roundway is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

Thank you, Chris. In that case I'll hold fire.

Edit. I've amended Henderson's rank to P/O. The CWGC has him as F/O, but in the LG He was only commissioned P/O eight days before K7011 left Portreath.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 30th November 2017, 12:48
Chris Goss's Avatar
Chris Goss Chris Goss is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 7,534
Chris Goss is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

4 crew and 7 pax as per post 3. No more, no less according to Cas Cards
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 30th November 2017, 21:20
Roundway Roundway is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Roundway is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

Thank you, Chris, 11 it is then.

Brian
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 1st December 2017, 01:08
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 3,055
Alex Smart is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

Hello,
Odly AB's K file has 12 killed ?
Alex
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 1st December 2017, 10:39
Roundway Roundway is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 98
Roundway is on a distinguished road
Re: Luftwaffe activity west of Brest 19 December 1942?

There's always one awkward blighter!

Brian
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web (new version) Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 63 30th September 2018 22:55
KG26 December 1942 Andre Chissel Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 5th October 2006 10:00
May 24th Luftwaffe attack on West Raynham Jon Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 13th September 2006 15:41
Luftwaffe Activity at Le Mans DanPatrick Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 12th September 2006 02:24
Eastern vs Western Front (was: La-7 vs ???) Christer Bergström Allied and Soviet Air Forces 66 1st March 2005 19:44


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 21:27.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net