The first German loss on French territory in WW II.

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

In trying to locate the first German crashes on French territory during WW II, the first two that are certain were on 24 September 1939. However, there was a 3./JG53 Bf109E that came down on 20 September "west of Merzig," Germany, which is very near the border with France, close to the tri-border area with Luxembourg. As best I can determine the French border was only 5 to 7 km west from the center of Merzig. In "Fledgling Eagles" P.62, this Bf109E was reported as "shot down into the lines."

"20 September 1939: 3./JG53 Messerschmitt Bf109E. Shot down by Sgt Legrand of GC II/5 in combat west of Merzig and crashlanded in flames 1.55 p.m. (Ff) Uffz Martin Winkler badly burned, died four days later. Aircraft a write-off."

I'm trying to confirm that the aircraft actually fell on the German side of the border. Since Uffz Winker was apparently recovered by the Germans and undoubtedly hospitalized, and there is no indication that he bailed out, I would assume that the plane also came down on German territory. Does anyone have any information to confirm this, and do photos possibly exist of this crash or Uffz Winker?

[Frans A]

Larry Hickey
When you Google to :Uffz. Martin Winkler then to Saarlouis-Flugzeugabstürze in WOII and then to: 1939-20-09 you will find that the crashplace was :Überherrn in Germany.
What I do not understand is what is stated there: The crashplace was 600m from the German border and 1000m from the French border.?

[ouidjat]

Originally Posted by Frans A

...
What I do not understand is what is stated there: The crashplace was 600m from the German border and 1000m from the French border.?

Hi,

Maybe because it wasn't in France neither in Germany but still in occupied zone - by French - since the end of WWI.
In fact it was an autonomous land up to 1935 and back to Germany after that. Therefore, I can suppose the link you did consult is a little bit wrong in terms of dates/status...

Best regards, Franck.

[Merlin]

Frans A,

the correct translation should read:
"The crashplace was 600m from the German (army) lines and 1000m from the French (army) lines"

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

I'm trying to confirm that the aircraft actually fell on the German side of the border. Since Uffz Winker was apparently recovered by the Germans and undoubtedly hospitalized, and there is no indication that he bailed out, I would assume that the plane also came down on German territory. Does anyone have any information to confirm this, and do photos possibly exist of this crash or Uffz Winker?

Good evening Larry & Franck !

To give a confirmation if German/French territory or not is a tricky thing at those days in September 1939.

The presumed location Überherrn is a good example. In 1937, my "V.B. Strassen-Atlas von Deutschland" shows Überherrn clearly in Germany. But very close to the French border.

From late August 1939, the population was evacuated from there as "Red Zone" inhabitants to safer places in the Reich, since an attack of French troops was expected in the area due to the German attack on Poland. So, only very , very little people were and are available to obtain statements about those days.

When the war was declared on Sept. 3rd, French troops started a minor offensive towards the Saar in this area, holding finally a 15 km wide front area and about 50 German villages. One of this villages was Überherrn. The German Forces reinforced and were planning a counterstroke to recover the ground, French Army had hold. By the end of October 1939, all French troops were back to their defence lines.,

Larry, you see that your question is moving in a no-mans land that time and an exact spot of the a/c's crash should be available. On the French side, the 42ème D.I. was in this area those days. If it is Überherrn, it was on my opinion in Germany on temporary French hold soil.

Best wishes !

Horst Weber

[robert]

Hi Larry,

daily report of AOK1 (no.1 Army) gives as follows:
"A German fighter was force-landed near Ueberherrn (2 km S of Berus) in front of our (security) positions. After the pilot was evacuated the aircraft was destroyed".

Regards

Robert

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

The response here has been excellent to a complicated problem, My conclusion is that this was not on French soil, but was on German soil in a temporary no-man-land between the two sides. After apparently crash-landing the badly burned pilot either made his own way, or more likely was rescued from the crash site by German soldiers. It isn't clear whether the plane was then set on fire and destroyed, or came down on fire and was destroyed in the subsequent fire. There is an interesting story here about the retrieval of this badly wounded pilot, which I hope we can find more information about. I'm also hoping that we can find a photo of the crash, even if the plane was largely destroyed.
Can anyone be of further help?

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Based upon the updated info on this loss, Peter Cornwell has updated this EoE LW Loss entry as follows:

"20 September 1939 Western Front Amend: 3./JG53 Messerschmitt Bf109E. Shot down by Sgt Legrand of GC II/5 in combat west of Merzig and crash-landed in flames near Überherrn, south of Berus, 1.55 p.m. FF Uffz Martin Winkler rescued badly burned - died four days later. Aircraft a write-off.
Came down in evacuated German territory close to the border with France."

[ouidjat]

Good morning Gents.

Thank you very much Horst.

Best regards, Franck.

[Horst Weber]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Hello,

The response here has been excellent to a complicated problem, My conclusion is that this was not on French soil, but was on German soil in a temporary no-man-land between the two sides. After apparently crash-landing the badly burned pilot either made his own way, or more likely was rescued from the crash site by German soldiers. It isn't clear whether the plane was then set on fire and destroyed, or came down on fire and was destroyed in the subsequent fire. There is an interesting story here about the retrieval of this badly wounded pilot, which I hope we can find more information about. I'm also hoping that we can find a photo of the crash, even if the plane was largely destroyed.
Can anyone be of further help?

Good evening Larry !

This area was at Sept. 20th, 1939 a military ruled area. No civilian so far. On my opinion, there was no interest from the German side anyhow, to publish a photograph of the crashed plane. It seems, that the French Forces were not in reach of the distressed aircraft anytime.

A chance for more informatin could be reports from the German unit(s) Kriegstagebuch (KTB) in this area that day.

It seems, that the crash location was in the area of responsibilty of the (German) 34th Infanterie Division (ID) those days. This unit was subordinated to XXX. Armee-Korps (A.K.), which was subordinated to 1st German Army.

It is slight possible, that the left neighbour of the 34th ID, the 15th ID, was involved into the accident, too. This Division, in neighbourhood, was that day subordinated to IIX A.K, but also under the command of 1st German Army.

Best Christmas and a happy New Year !

Horst Weber