Armee de L'Air Nomenclature

[Jim Oxley]

I understand the type broad groupings eg GC, GAR, GB,GAO etc. But I'm after the nitty gritty eg number of aircraft in a flight, how many flights make an Escadrille, Escadrille to Groupes etc. Size variations between Groupes de Chasses, Groupes de Bombardment etc.

And what does the II/4 mean in GC II/4? Or the I/22 in GR I/22? Did Escadrilles have identifying numbers a'la RAF Squadrons? Or were they generic like the Luftwaffe?

[Bertrand H]

Jim,

This link could help you :

http://www.traditions-air.fr/

Bertrand H

[Jim Oxley]

Thanks for that link Bertrand, but I think the information is giving me a headache! And I thought the Japanese style of numbering groups was confusing. The French seem to follow the same pattern.

Ok lets see if I'm on the right track. Lets take the 3rd EC as an example.

3rd EC is a Groupement de Chasse (GC) - a fighter wing similar to, but not as large as, a German Jagdgeschwader (JG). In 1939 it was made up of two Groupes - GC I/3 and GC II/3. Each Groupe consisted of two Escadrilles (Squadrons) - generic No's 1 and 2 allocated to GC I/3 and No's 3 and 4 allocated to GC II/3. Again the Escadrille numbering is similar to that of the German system ie 1 & 2 always with GC I/... and 3 & 4 with GCII/...

Now if the above is correct, where I get lost is that each of those Escadrille's 1 & 2, 3 & 4 etc, had their own identifying original number. For example Escadrille 1 of GC I/3 was SPA 88, Escadrille 2 of GC I/3 was SPA 69, Escadrille 3 of GC II/3 was SPA 37 and Escadrille 4 of GC II/3 was SPA 81. Now unless those Escadrille are only ever allocated to GC I/3 or II/3 how would anyone know what was the actual Escadrille allocated toa Groupe?

[Graham Boak]

The identifying numbers are those of the original WW1 units, and do not serve any purpose in the WW2 (and current) nomenclature except for noting the carriage of the tradition of those units.

I believe something similar was present in the USN, where units could be renumbered according to the carrier allocation but would carry forward their traditional emblems (e.g. Tophatters). There, the number was lost but the tradition carried on. The French simply keep the number as part of the tradition, but it served no administrative purpose.

Yes, units could be transferred, and would adopt their new number. As in the German system.

[Tom Semenza]

I would like to know how, for example, GC II/5 would be said verbally en francais.

Merci en avance,

Tom

[Jim Oxley]

So Escadrille numbering simply became generic? As in the German Staffel system?

[Graham Boak]

I don't think you can draw the parallel down to Staffel/escadrille, but I am getting out of my depth here - where is CJE?

To use an invented example. When I/GC9 was formed, the unit carrying the tradition of SPA14 became its 4th Escadrille. I don't think it it called itself 4/GC9 outside of the necessary admin paperwork that linked it to the rest of I/GC9, but here I will bow to the better informed! I think it called itself SPA14. It was then transferred to become the 3rd Escadrille of GC10. It remained as SPA14 as far as its internal affairs were concerned.

So I believe the answer to your second question is that the structure has obvious parallels with that of the Luftwaffe, but it breaks down at the Escadrille level as far as "identity" is concerned.

The answer to your first question, as to how to identify the component Escadrilles of the various Groupes, I think that there is no scheme or logic, you just have to know which went where. If there is a single suitable source, and I feel there must be, somewhere, I don't know of it. Surely someone must have published such a list. AirJournal did a series covering the history of the fighter Groupes, but that leaves all the others. I suspect that the current L'Armee de L'Aire will have a site that gives the historical roots of current units, but they will only be a minority. Perhaps this is a question for the French equivalent of Air Britain, which I think is called La Traite D'Union? Or the French specialist within Air Britain?

[CJE]

Here I am, Graham!

We start from the "escadres" (roughly "Wings"). They had two or three "groupes" numbered as follows (roman numerals):

2e escadre de chasse :
GC I/2
GC II/2
GC III/2

31e escadre de bombardement :
GB I/31
GB II/31

Right?

Then, each "groupe" had two "escadrilles", numbered from 1 (arab numerals) on.

GC I/2 : 1ère and 2e escadrilles
GC II/2 : 3e and 4e escadrilles
GC III/2 : 5e and 6e escadrilles

Still following?

But... the "escadres" were disbanded as such in November 1939 and the "groupes" activated after numbered their "escadrilles" differently.
So, GC III/1, the "escadrilles" of which should have been numbered 5e and 6e escadrilles, numbered them 1ère and 2e escadrilles instead, because GC III/1 was activated in January 1940.

Have another glass and relax.

[Jim Oxley]

I knew I was right! Armee de L'Air unit numbered is as convoluted as the Japanese naval air system!

Are you saying CJE that units created after January 1940 used the same Escadrille numbers as those already in existence prior to '40? So that measn that GC I/1 would have had 1 ère and 2e Escadrille allocated to it, and the same Escadrille numbers would have been used in GC III/1?

Ahhh carumber! :banghead:

Another couple of questions if I may. Did each Groupe (fighter, bomber, reconn) only have two Escadrilles allocated to it? And what were the numbers of aircraft allocated to each?

[CJE]

No problemo, Jim.

The Escadrille was not supposed to be an autonomous outfit, like the Flight in the RAF. There are a few instances where Escadrilles were temporarily detached to another a/f, but the main aunomous unit was the Groupe.
Thus, it did not matter that GC III/1 had the same 1st and 2nd Escadrilles as GC I/1. BTW, they were refered to as "1st - or 2nd - escadrille of GC III/1".
Each Groupe had only two Escadrilles.

The usual strength for a GC was between 26 and 36 a/c. 26, ie 12 for each Escadrille and two for the HQ. The C/O and his deputy were supposed to take part in operational missions, but as a matter of fact few did in May-June 40.
Count about the half for GBs and GRs, and only one HQ a/c.

Wishes,

Chris