Georg-Peter Eder Jet ace confirmation?

[Col Bruggy]

Hello,

Here is one of the listings of Georg-Peter Eder's claims:

http://www.cieldegloire.fr/001_eder_p_g.php

Why do they bother?

Col

[Johannes]

Hi Col

Many thanks for getting involved.

This abschusselist is a combination of details from the mikrofilms coupled with the jet claims, however I do not believe it is correct, the mikrofilms are reliable until 3rd December 1944, yet not a single claim is recorded for Eder, yet everybody else is included, if other pilots claims were excluded as well you can imagine a breakdown in recording the claims, but it seems to be just Eder's, therefore personally I have concluded that ALL his confirmed claims must have taken place after 3rd December 1944 yet before 22nd February 1945.


Kind Regards


Johannes

[Johannes]

Hi Jim

Thanks for your input. If this story is factual then the P-38 claim was not confirmed, in fact the story states that the P-38 disappeared, therefore Eder wouldn't have seen it crash.


In the late 1970's I read in a book an Eder story, he shoots down four Allied aircraft, then gets shot-down himself, he thought from return-fire from a B-17 above him, he is badly wounded/injured and somebody within his ambulance congratulates him on his "four kills", yet this is not reflected in his abschusselist. Then he states that after his surrender the Americans starved him, which went on, but he states his weight dropped from 180 lbs to 98 lbs, he would himself have talked in kilograms anyway!


Kind Regards


Johannes

[Johannes]

Hi Franek

There is no proof that Lang made false claims, we would need a sworn statement from his rottenflieger for that, and that would incriminate himself.

Can't remember the title, but TOCH covered Lang before on this subject. His claims were cross-matched against Russian losses ………...assuming this is a complete listing of Russian losses then I do remember his seventeen claims for 3rd November 1943 were really heavily checked.

What we established was that according to Horbert Hannig's publication that Lang have planned-out the day, almost like it was an attempted on the record, he planned to fly a certain number of sorties, each time with a single rottenflieger, Lang claimed heavily, but so would his rottenflieger, actually by memory on one sortie not a single Sowiet aircraft fell.

Foremost of his rottenflieger was Reinhold Hoffmann, Hoffmann was only making spectacular claims whilst witnessing Lang's spectacular claims, their partnership lasted only a few weeks, prior to this both, but especially Hoffmann showed no outstanding abilities in claiming Sowiet aircraft. When they both transfere to 9./JG54 from 5./JG54 again they revert to unspectacular claiming, actually I would say they didn't actually fly together at this time.

Nick states that Lang continues his overclaiming with St.II./JG26, another of his rottenflieger follows him there this is Alfred Gross who also was claiming with Lang at 5./JG54...……….but never in the way Hoffmann did. Anyway one would suspect Gross was Lang's enabler at St.II./JG26, but I don't think this is the case, it would appear again that they didn't actually fly together much, in fact 3rd September 1944 is the only proven day. Therefore there must be another explanation why Nick cannot match Lang's claims in the West with Allied losses, this could be that he doesn't have details of ALL the Allied losses, but actually whereas the Sowiets might be incomplete actually the Allied losses we do actually know. There is another possibility, assuming Nick is correct, and personally I think he is, then it's worth mentioning that those who have deemed the worst over-claimers seem to do this as Kommandeur, now with Erich Rudorffer his claims are linked with Kurt Tangermann, again here Tangermann does nothing before or after his time with Rudorffer, but I don't know but is it possible that a Kommandeur[ATTACH]Attachment 17511[/ATTACH]r could self certificate claims(Nowotny's claims the same as Kommandeur), there is absolutely no connection between anybody within Stab.II./JG26 and Lang! Only other thing I can suggest is that Gross and Lang did fly together, but JG26 being a bit more scrutinising that they claimed together but on separate days as to remove suspicion!

Anyway havn't finished my Lang witness listing yet, but I'll leave you with Rudorffer's, on days where he makes a single claim nobody else makes a claim, in my opinion he was flying without Tangermann(Broch maybe)and the claim was genuine, anyway whatever you think there is a definite pattern that appears with Lang, Nowotny and Rudorffer.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Dan History]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Can't remember the title, but TOCH covered Lang before on this subject. His claims were cross-matched against Russian losses

Hello and Merry Christmas, Johannes!

The thread in question was started by Evgeny Velichko, who is writing an article about Emil Lang - http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=51703

Kind regards,

Dan

[Johannes]

Merry Christmas to you to Dan, and thanks for the information.

According to the Norbert Hannig publication Lang did indeed plan his sorties on 3rd November 1943(Seventeen in a day) according to Hannig two war reporters had turned-up to film the days action. Now with regards to the accuracy of Hannig's recollection of the day we can judge this against Lang's claims, but Hannig stated that against his earlier statements over who was flying that day, the first sortie was flown with Peschke, the second with Gross, the third with Gross and the fourth with Hoffmann. Hannig also states that remaining pilots on the ground witnessed Lang shooting down two Jak-7's on his third sortie.

I have been looking hard at the claimers with 5./JG 54 and would say that Hannig was not involved in any of Lang's schemes(and oblivious to them?), even Gross doesn't seem obvious. Maximilian Stotz flew with this Staffel in early 1943, TOCH has discussed his overclaiming also in detail, personally I put it down to the arrival of their new Kommandeur Hans Hahn, again just a short period of spectacular claiming, then upon Hahn's loss Stotz's claims return to a level matching other staffel members, and again I can confirm that after the short period of spectacular claims by Lang and Hoffmann things return to normal once they seem not to be flying with each other anymore.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Franek Grabowski]

Johannes

Originally Posted by Johannes

There is no proof that Lang made false claims, we would need a sworn statement from his rottenflieger for that, and that would incriminate himself.

Not necessarily a sworn statement, but a substantiated statement from someone being there at the time would be an indication. I recall on the old forum there was several years ago a quote of a JG 54(?) airman, an ace with 49(?) Il-2 kills, who expressed some his opinions on other aces. I recall he was quite critical on Rudorffer, I think he noted that they flew a patrol and found no wreck following one of Rudorffer's combats. The other airman mentioned whose name I recall was Horst Ademeit, he in turn took victories of his younger wingmen. I have saved the post, but could not find it since.
Is it an evidence? Not sure, but at least it indicates that there was a problem.

Nick states that Lang continues his overclaiming with St.II./JG26, another of his rottenflieger follows him there this is Alfred Gross who also was claiming with Lang at 5./JG54...……….but never in the way Hoffmann did. Anyway one would suspect Gross was Lang's enabler at St.II./JG26, but I don't think this is the case, it would appear again that they didn't actually fly together much, in fact 3rd September 1944 is the only proven day. Therefore there must be another explanation why Nick cannot match Lang's claims in the West with Allied losses, this could be that he doesn't have details of ALL the Allied losses, but actually whereas the Sowiets might be incomplete actually the Allied losses we do actually know. There is another possibility, assuming Nick is correct, and personally I think he is, then it's worth mentioning that those who have deemed the worst over-claimers seem to do this as Kommandeur, now with Erich Rudorffer his claims are linked with Kurt Tangermann, again here Tangermann does nothing before or after his time with Rudorffer, but I don't know but is it possible that a Kommandeur[ATTACH]Attachment 17511[/ATTACH]r could self certificate claims(Nowotny's claims the same as Kommandeur), there is absolutely no connection between anybody within Stab.II./JG26 and Lang! Only other thing I can suggest is that Gross and Lang did fly together, but JG26 being a bit more scrutinising that they claimed together but on separate days as to remove suspicion!

You can have a look at Andy Saunders' book on Bader's demise. There he analysed every loss and who could have been a victor. It turned out that three Spitfires fell down to friendly fire, thus quite significantly increasing the overclaim of JG 26. Unfortunately no sources are given, but it is quite enlightening.

As to Eder, I have once tried to contact his family, but with no reply. I do not know why, but I am quite intrigued by his post-war whereabouts. He was invlolved in some bogus stories of mid-1950s involving Mike Gładych, and I find it quite intriguing.

Best wishes

Franek

[Johannes]

Hi Franek

Your bogus stories item is actually most interesting, I am sure that some pilots made up such stories, but many others had things made up about them, and probably never ever knew about it in their lifetime.

I had looked at Rudorffer's claims, actually whenever he claims just one or two his rottenflieger doesn't claim, so I would suggest these are genuine, and I also don't think that Hugo Broch was involved, in fact I am thinking he was a genuine witness to Rudorffer's little days.

Have just completed my Lang/Hoffmann and Gross cross-examination, Seems that Gross was not Lang's rottenflieger with St.II./JG26, and Lang in each case was the only claimer, so we need a more informed TOCH member to advise on if a Kommandeur is treated differently whilst claiming(though so was Rudorffer, but still used Tangermann). Now TOCH looked into Maximilian Stotz, and we concluded that again over a very short period his claims became spectacular, and we concluded he was influenced by hisKommandeur Hans Hahn, then on Hahn's lose reverts to unspectacular claiming, well Lang flew with Stotz………...and Tangermann before his spectacular phase. Lang's rottenflieger were generally Reinhold Hoffmann and Alfred Gross, I am not at all sure that Gross was involved in the overclaiming, pretty sure that Hoffmann was, all this including Stotz was with 5./JG54, when Lang,Gross and Hoffmann move onto III./JG54 their claims are unspecatular, in fact Gross's never were!


Regarding Lang's super seventeen(eighteen by press) Norbert Hannig states these were achieved in four sorties two, seven, five and four making eighteen, in reality it was seven, one, five and four making seventeen, Hannig states that on the first sortie his rottenflieger was Peschke, the second Gross, the third Gross and Hoffmann, and the four Hoffmann, yet in reality Hoffmann would have been on all four, Peschke the first, Gross the second. Hannig also states that on the first sortie ALL of Lang's four cannons jammed and he returned with "two kills", yet it looks like this was the second mission(with Gross anf Hoffmann) which resulted in just "one kill", again I believe personally that this was a legitimate claim, and again Lang is not alone with Hoffmann. Hannig's statement is roughly matching the fact, but a little mixed-up, also it seems that Peschke would be mixed-up in the false claims(see attached.


With Nowotny we have been informed for decade of the famous schwarm with Dobele, Rademacher and Schnorrer, yet there is little evidence for this, again like Lang when with the St.I./JG54 Nowotny is claiming alone, but during his spectacular period he's claiming with Gerhard Loos and Anton Dobele, and when they part company both of these rottenflieger return to unspectacular claiming(see attached) don't think that either Schnorrer or Rademacher are involved.[ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH]Attachment 17525[/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]
Same can be said about the Graf schwarm, don't think that Alfred Grislawski was involved, and he was the only one of the four who did anything outside of 9./JG52...…..coincidence ?


Actually I had heard good things about III./JG54, if true this might explain the very obvious decline in the Lang gang's claiming. Hopefully a Russian loss expert can cross-examine my thoughts here.

As for Bader, fact he came up alone behind a whole staffel of Bf109's, didn't want to attack so dove away, another Spitfire came up behing the same staffel and saw one dive away, which he nailed...…..it being Bader, Bader never fired a shot, claimed he shot down two Bf109's and collided with another, Bader's victor was them himself shot down, whilst a prisoner and talking to Bader he realised his mistake and apoligised to Bader, yer Bader still maintained he was rammed by a Bf109, I believe he also avoided paying tax on his autobiography because he was a National hero...…...you need gal.


Kind Regards


Johannes

[Alfred.MONZAT]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

You can have a look at Andy Saunders' book on Bader's demise. There he analysed every loss and who could have been a victor. It turned out that three Spitfires fell down to friendly fire, thus quite significantly increasing the overclaim of JG 26. Unfortunately no sources are given, but it is quite enlightening.

I have not read this book but... three friendly fire ? In the same combat ?



8 Spitfires were lost and one third would have fell to friendly fire ?


According to what I have 2 FTR and 6 were reported shot down by Bf 109s during Circus 68. They claimed 15 sure victories (+8 probables).


The Luftwaffe have one loss to Spitfire and another one, but not sure if related to the combat. They claimed 6 which were confirmed (one unconfirmed).


Not sure the Luftwaffe overclaimed a lot on this particular combat (overclaim was probably higher on the evening battle), even taking these three friendly fire as granted.


Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood something.

[Franek Grabowski]

Hi

Originally Posted by Johannes

Your bogus stories item is actually most interesting, I am sure that some pilots made up such stories, but many others had things made up about them, and probably never ever knew about it in their lifetime.

I have been in touch with a son of a Soviet pilot downed in Murmansk area by a well known JG 5 pilot. There was a marked discrepancy between the accounts of both, and the Soviet pilot was the only loss, despite numbers claimed by the German pilot. This was based on post-war accounts.

Actually I had heard good things about III./JG54, if true this might explain the very obvious decline in the Lang gang's claiming. Hopefully a Russian loss expert can cross-examine my thoughts here.

If it has not been done already, no doubt it will. The problem is that the Lw research is poor, and in fact nobody ever attempted to recreate a sort of RAF Form 541 for any German unit. It would help immenselly to understand the situation.

As for Bader, fact he came up alone behind a whole staffel of Bf109's, didn't want to attack so dove away, another Spitfire came up behing the same staffel and saw one dive away, which he nailed...…..it being Bader, Bader never fired a shot, claimed he shot down two Bf109's and collided with another, Bader's victor was them himself shot down, whilst a prisoner and talking to Bader he realised his mistake and apoligised to Bader, yer Bader still maintained he was rammed by a Bf109, I believe he also avoided paying tax on his autobiography because he was a National hero...…...you need gal.

As far as the book explains it, Bader misjudged his approach, so following his attack he had to dive down to avoid collision. He certainly has not written his autobiography, as it was Paul Brickhill who was the author. There was some quarrel about share in royalties, though.

Originally Posted by Alfred.MONZAT

I have not read this book but... three friendly fire ? In the same combat ?

Yes, Bader, and two aircraft of No 452 Sqn downed by the 452 Sqn airmen, who clashed with themselves. Several, but cannot say how many exactly, RAF losses do not match German claims, including Galland.