Luftwaffe claim for a "RECCE AIRCRAFT" on 9 August 1944?

[Karoband]

Good afternoon,

I found this ULTRA message in XL7497 on p. 5 of DEFE 3 123:

NOW KNOWN THAT ON NINTH AUGUST QUOTE SPECIAL)) DETACHMENT LECHFELD £ LECHFELD UNQUOTE OPERATED AGAINST RECCE AIRCRAFT AND CLAIMED ONE SHOT DOWN
221928Z/8/44

As I cannot find such a claim in Tony Wood's data base, I am presuming that this is a garbled account of of Joachim Weber's claim of the eighth of August. If so, my question is this: Who garbled it? The Germans or the British?

best regards,

Jim

[Pierre Renier]

Hello Jim

A possible candidate for you a Coastal Command PR Mosquito, see ORB 540 Squadron 09Aug44 (see AIR 27/2007/45 & AIR 27/2007/46).

Form 540 - F/Lt J.L.H.Richards and P/O R.J.Barents briefed for targets at Konigsberg, Gdynia and Danzig but failed to return.

Form 541 – Date 9.8.44, Aircraft Type & Number Mosquito IX LR435, Crew F/Lt J.L.H.Richards and P/O R.J.Barents, Time Up 0915 Base & 10.20. Details of sortie, Targets:- Konigsberg, Gdynia, Danzig. Airborne base 09.15 to refuel Coltishall. Airborne Coltishall 10.20. A/c failed to return. Reference 106G/2068

Kind regards
Pierre

[Andy Fletcher]

Richards and Barents were both interned in Sweden. Their objectives were in Prussia whereas Joachim Weber's claim on 08 Aug 44 was south-west of Munich. A better match would be Mosquito LR433, also of 540 Sqn which was lost on the 8th on a sortie to Munich. F/L D.L. Matthewman and F/S W.D. Stopford both KIA.

Best regards

Andy Fletcher

[Karoband]

Hello Pierre,

Thank you for your candidate for the ninth with its excellent annotated references. Unfortunately, from the German side I can find no unit claim for this aircraft on this day. Also I know of no unit that had an aircraft of speed and range from Lechfeld that could have shot down a Mosquito over the Baltic Sea. The only German claim close in time and place is that of Weber a day earlier.

Andy,

I agree that Mosquito LR433 is the most logical candidate for Weber's claim ...on the eighth! Thus my question.

Best regards,
Jim

[Pierre Renier]

Hello Jim

Having seen Andy’s posting I’m inclined to agree this is the more probable candidate.

While I can’t help further at this point maybe other forum members can. I had a look at the Ultra message you referred to and what is useful are the references at the top. CX/MSS/R284/A2 and CX/MSS/T284/51, this means there will be other messages that can be viewed elsewhere at TNA and likely give more information on time and origin of the original message.

CX/MSS/R284/A2 will be found under HW 5/569 and though these are messages relayed to interested parties on 23Aug’44, amongst the footnotes or in a summary listing should contain, the German time of origin, frequency on which it was intercepted and the stations call sign. Several years ago I viewed part of this series, and as an example the file was dated 17Jun, messages spanned a time period from 30May to 16Jun. As it happens the file I viewed contained messages CX/MSS/T217/1 and onwards, so adding 67 to get CX/MSS/T284 and the same value in days you come to 23Aug’44, so in all probability CX/MSS/T284/51 will also be in HW 5/569 or an adjacent volume at TNA.

I know a few forum members have gone through the HW material, so fingers crossed someone can help further.

Kind regards
Pierre

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Pierre Renier

As it happens the file I viewed contained messages CX/MSS/T217/1 and onwards, so adding 67 to get CX/MSS/T284 and the same value in days you come to 23 Aug ’44, so in all probability CX/MSS/T284/51 will also be in HW 5/569 or an adjacent volume at TNA.

I know a few forum members have gone through the HW material, so fingers crossed someone can help further.

Kind regards
Pierre

Pierre, you are quite right that those "284" messages will be on HW 5/569 but unfortunately I did not photograph either of the items that you mention.

[Karoband]

Pierre and Nick,

Thank you for "HW 5/569". It has not been digitised. Hopefully sometime in the future it will be available.

Jim

[Steve Coates]

I enquired a couple of years ago. Unfortunately, TNA has no plans to digitise HW5.