The famous 2N+HN stopped by trees...

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Pete63

Hi, John.
I can't read the name of the crash site - I thought Born/Buern was mentioned - but that's the airfield above and below the crash site. I'm sorry - I've mixed things up. The crash site is St. ????? - St. Juan oder St. Fuan? (I've tried all possible spellings in Sütterlin and Fraktur in the converter on the world wide web...)
I'm pretty certain we're searching in the right area...
With kind regards,
Piet

(edited after spelling checks in Fraktur, etc.)

See my post #29 re St. Juan, and the map I posted.

[Pete63]

Originally Posted by John Vasco

See my post #29 re St. Juan, and the map I posted.

Hi, John.

I've examined the area of the Bois Saint Jean in Google StreetView.
The road through the forest has many side-roads and these are also called "Bois Saint Jean" and although the area shows many similarities - nothing conclusive there yet. There are coniferous trees, there are many telephone/hi tension poles, there are ditches and open spaces - but here too there are roads that haven't been taken up in StreetView...
It's the proverbial needle in a haystack...

There's a chance that the road in the Me 110 photographs has been widened for traffic flow purposes and that the trees on both sides have had to be removed, I don't know.

Any Belgian members here who might be able to help..?

The search continues...
With kind regards,
Piet

[bn785371]

A map of the area and some photos,probably along the N89(?),somewhere.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by bn785371

A map of the area and some photos,probably along the N89(?),somewhere.

The only misigiving I have about the N89 is that 'La Roche-en-Ardenne' is mentioned ont he back of one photo, and I don't believe that that is anywhere near the N89. I think it is more likely to be the road that drops south from the N89, the one between Chabrehez and Wibrin.

[Pete63]

Dear John,

Funny that you're mentioning Chabrehez - to the North/West of Bois de Saint Jean - I stumbled upon this road this afternoon in StreetView and dismissed it because I couldn't find the sheds in the background, but there is a telephone/hi tension line running a bit like the one in the pics, the shadows add up If compared to the photographs and there's a ditch in the correct place.
But there aren't enough trees, was my first opinion... Maybe they're gone..? Is the road broad enough for the trucks in the pictures, was my second thought..?
Well, anyway, the spot that resembles a lot is this one:

50°13'25.8"N 5°43'05.4"E (standard lat and long)
50.223831, 5.718172 (in digital degrees)

When you type in these coordinates in GoogleEarth or GoogleMaps and go to StreetView, you'll see what I mean. But I'm afraid I am still not 100% positive about this situation...

With kind regards,
Piet

[Marcel Hogenhuis]

Hello John,

Could you please send me your mailadress, a friend of mine and wellknown airwar author wants to contact you. Please send me a mail: marcelhogenhuis@gmail.com

Best wishes from Venlo,

Marcel

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Marcel Hogenhuis

Hello John,

Could you please send me your mailadress, a friend of mine and wellknown airwar author wants to contact you. Please send me a mail: marcelhogenhuis@gmail.com

Best wishes from Venlo,

Marcel

Will do, Marcel.

[Pete63]

Dear John,

I did some further research and... I'm afraid I can't come up with a crash site - I've even searched in France, Norway and Germany (if the logbook is not related to this photo series of the crashed 2N+HN...) and I must say that there are more locations that meet the demands required: open terrain, ditches, different sorts of trees including coniferous trees, etcetera...

The photograph of the road (with all the German vehicles) that you posted, makes clear that the road in question is at least 7 meters wide and that the trees are already very large... In the forest of Saint Jean the roads are not that wide at all...

I have the feeling that we're not looking for a location to the south of the Netherlands. The long shadows and the large coniferous trees make me think that Norway (Stavanger-Sola, etc.) might even be a greater possibility - and that the logbook does not refer to this crash but yet to another 2N+HN...

But that's just a hunch. The proverbial needle in the haystack kicks in again, I'm afraid...

With kind regards,
Piet

P.S. I hope you have more luck when contacting Marcel's friend...

[Tim O.]

Just for clarity, the Flugbuch I posted does not (unfortunately) show the aircraft ID letters.

[John Vasco]

Originally Posted by Pete63

Dear John,

I have the feeling that we're not looking for a location to the south of the Netherlands. The long shadows and the large coniferous trees make me think that Norway (Stavanger-Sola, etc.) might even be a greater possibility - and that the logbook does not refer to this crash but yet to another 2N+HN...

But that's just a hunch. The proverbial needle in the haystack kicks in again, I'm afraid...

With kind regards,
Piet

Piet,

You have to consider all the evidence.

Look at the Flugbuch entries on page 1. I believe the Buer mentioned in the Flugbuch is Gelsenkirchen-Buer, the take-off airfield on 13th May.

The Flugbuch mentions Belgium twice. Aside from not quite knowing the exact location, it seems pretty certain that the crew would know which country they came down in.

The reverse of several photos gives place names that are nowhere near Norway, but Western Europe. Forget Norway - that is a non-starter.

The road does NOT necessarily have to be IN the forest of St. Jean. Mention of St. Jean is only a reference point, not an exact location. As evidenced by the mention of several different place names on the reverse of other photos (note that the writing on these photos would have been made several weeks after the photo was taken, and the advancing German army would obviously have travelled through a host of different places).

The movement of German forces and the time of year in the photos, points to the Western Campaign in the Spring of 1940. The Flugbuch is that of a crew member of 5./ZG 1. 2N+HN is 5./ZG 1. Mention is made in the Flugbuch of the Bf 110 ending up 'between trees'. How many 5./ZG 1 Bf 110s ended up 'between trees'?

In the Western Campaign in the Spring of 1940, 5./ZG 1 suffered the following losses:
13 May
Küppers/Behrend
Shot down by AA fire. 100% loss.
Vlissingen
Both crew killed.

27 May
Gefr. Hans Nickel, wounded.
Damaged in combat with Spitfires.
100 % write-off.
10 kilometres north-west of Dunkirk.

11 June
Schmidt/Lotz
Crashed during return flight following combat mission.
100% write-off
Haslach, Black Forest
Both crew wounded.

None of the locations mentioned in the above three losses are remotely near any of the locations mentioned on the reverse of photos of 2N+HN crashed into the trees.

I rest my case...