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  #1  
Old 29th May 2008, 21:46
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Marseille photo

The Ed West posting that showed what appeared to be Hans Marseille getting into an F-4 with a SKZ has generated some interest from myself and Rabe Anton as you might imagine. I decided to start a new thread.

Let’s start with the assumption that in fact the figure in the “new Marseille photo” is Hptm. u. Stkp. Hans-Joachim Marseille. While there is no concrete proof of identity, the facial features and physique of the pilot match Marseille. So too does the sunglasses, rolled up sleeves, and wheel cap “get-up,” along with the Ritterkreuz with supplementary decorations hanging at the neck. The pilot’s dress point indisputably to a warm environment, meaning that the photo must have been made sometime during the summer of 1942.
As to the airplane it the photo, it appears very probable that it is Bf 109F-4/Tp. WNr. 8673, Marseille’s last and most famous Friedrich. It is known that Marseille usually flew the WNr. 8673 as ge. 14 + after returning from leave in the third week of August 1942, but up until now nothing has been known—or seen—of it before its arrival in North Africa. The evidence for the earliest known view of WNr. 8673 is as follows:
• The airplane in the "new Marseille photo" is in fact a repaired or refinished Bf 109F-4/Tp. No upper/lower surface color dividing line can be seen, and it seems much more likely that the peculiar form of the "K" was applied at a repair facility rather than at a factory assembly line.
• The airplane in the photo shows the large sooty exhaust staining that characterized WNr. 8673.
• It is known that Bf 109F-4/Tp. WNr. 8645 was T J + I Y.
IF 8646 was T J + I Z, and IF the following SKZ block comprised a full 26 letters, then the next block would have begun with 8673. Thus, 8673's SKZ very likely ended in an “A.” In fact, this does agree with the SKZ in the “new Marseille photo,” which is - - + K A.
• IF the sequence beginning with 8673 did in fact begin with - - + K A (and, admittedly, a few "short" SKZ blocks in series production did not begin with "A"), then what were the first two letters of the Stammkennzeichen?
• In the caption to a photo in II./JG 27, p. 220, top, Jochen Prien, Peter Rodeike, and Gerhard Stemmer indicate that the SKZ for Bf 109F-4/Tp. WNr. 8687 began with S L + .
• Various other sources in Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer volumes show that S L + K U and
S L + K Z were Bf 109F-4/Tp. also sent to the Mediterranean Theatre. The writer does not, unfortunately, have direct and indisputable Werknummer correlations for these two machines, but if Prien/Rodeike/Stemmer are correct, their Werknummern would have been 8693 and 8698. The writer also knows of no SKZ blocks for Bf 109F-4/Tp. other than S L + K – fitting the theatre, time period, and other circumstances.
• Taking all of the above evidence into account, it seems virtually certain that the –– + K A in the “new Marseille photo” was WNr. 8673, that its SKZ was S L + K A, and that it is the earliest known image of that famous fighter while assigned to Marseille.

Look for this a/c's place in the history of Marseille's machines in our book recently published by Air Power Editions.
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Old 30th May 2008, 00:29
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

Hello!

Whatever it is worth. I have an Excel-file of Bf 109 individuals transferring North (to JG 5) via Finland for April-May 1942. The data comes from various archived Finnish Air Observation log books. Unfortunately my file has absolutely no notes about the orginal sources (so typical of me...).

Anyway I have following for BF 109 from SL+K_ block:

8.5.1942 (May 8th)
Bf 109 SLKV from Reval (Tallinn, Estonia) to Pori (Finland), landing time 19:27

26.5.1942
Bf 109 SLKT from Pori to Kemi (no data when it arrived at Pori). It flew with Bf 109 CDLW and SDLV (the latter "two" may very well be one and the same plane!!)

2.6.1942 (June 2nd)
Bf 109 SLKV from Pori to Kemi together with BF 109 CLGW and NJLK.


Regards,
Kari
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Old 30th May 2008, 01:22
edwest edwest is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

If one checks the LEMB SKZ database, there is an otherwise unidentified Bf 109F-4/Tp. as SL+.. At SL+KZ, another Bf 109F-4/Tp. but with the W.Nr. of 008687.


http://www.luftwaffe-experten.org/stam-s.html



HTH,
Ed
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Old 30th May 2008, 11:08
Kari Lumppio Kari Lumppio is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

Hi again!

I checked the www.ahs.no loss database. Seems that 18.3.1943 (March 18th) Bf 109 F-4 WNr 8694 from II/JG5 was lost (100%): "Notlandung infolge Erdabwehr "

If SL+KA was WNr 8673 then WNr 8694 would have been SL+KV, yes? That fits to the log data I posted earlier. SL+KZ would perhaps be WNr 8697 instead of 8687?? 8687 would be SL+KO if fully sequential?


Cheers,
Kari
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  #5  
Old 30th May 2008, 13:22
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Tomislav Haramincic Tomislav Haramincic is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kari Lumppio View Post
26.5.1942
Bf 109 SLKT from Pori to Kemi (no data when it arrived at Pori). It flew with Bf 109 CDLW and SDLV (the latter "two" may very well be one and the same plane!!)
Hello,

Just a small addition, according to the LEMB Stkz list SD+LV was a Fw58.
And also regarding WNr.8673, I have in my database the following
27.02.42 7./JG27 Lt. Wolf-Dietrich Sirc (KG), Luftkampf mit P-40, S Tobruk - 100% ws.3+~ (F-4/trop)
Although a 100% loss perhaps the wreck was later recovered and repaired. Does anyone have more on this loss? (belly-landing, crash, FSA... ?!)
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Old 31st May 2008, 12:18
F19Gladiator F19Gladiator is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

There was in 28 Feb 2007 another photo for sale at eBay.de which might be from the same event as the photo of xx+KA as posted by Ed West lately.
When comparing Marseille, the 109 and the back drop of the photo I recognize similarities.

For comparison I post links to both photos:





Br
Goran
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Old 3rd June 2008, 19:15
John Beaman John Beaman is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

Thanks for that 2nd photo, Goran. Rabe and myself agree this may well have been taken at the same time. In fact, if you look at the "original" photo, to M's right you can see a white item just over the fuselage spine. This might be the top of the other officer's white hat in your photo.

Thanks
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  #8  
Old 3rd June 2008, 23:03
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

I agree, both the background match as well as Marseille's outlook, even the way his headgear is tilted to his right, moreover i'm almost sure it's the top of the officer's white hat that you could see on hte second picture.
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Old 4th June 2008, 01:05
P Alvim P Alvim is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

Hello,

Yes. I agree too.
Everything matches very well... and the white hat is "the cherry over the cake".
Thanks for the thread!
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Best Regards,
Pedro
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  #10  
Old 4th June 2008, 21:37
Schirmmutze Schirmmutze is offline
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Re: Marseille photo

Sold for about £125. I was expecting it to go for a lot more than that. Is the lucky buyer a member here I wonder?
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