The confirmation of air victories of top Allied aces by LW sources?

[GuerraCivil]

Some of the records of German aces have been verified to great detail from the loss records of the Allied - I can think for example Marseille and some nightfighter aces - but how about the opposite?

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records? Who are the "verified" top Allied aces when it comes to shooting down German aircraft?

[Paul Thompson]

Hello GuerraCivil,

I think the short and rather unpromising answer is that there are few people like Theo Boiten, Chris Shores and Kari Stenman around Yuriy Rybin has done research on Soviet claims in the Arctic, but there has not been much written on this subject from a Soviet / Russian perspective. Part of the reason that I research losses at a strategic and operational level is because tactical-level data is so very difficult to collect and analyse, even for those who have decades of experience in the subject.

Regards,

Paul

[Edward L. Hsiao]

To GuerraCivil,

That's a very good question! For a long time I suspected that Ivan Kozhedub's 62 air-to-air victories over the Eastern Front to not be believed at all. Plenty of his claims over the Luftwaffe hasn't really been verified by the Luftwaffe loss records. For the USAAF fighter pilots who fought against the Luftwaffe over Germany and claimed ten or more victories(especially with 5 air-to-air kills in one mission),well plenty of their of their claims can't be matched by the real losses in the Luftwaffe loss records. Just my thought!

Sincerely,

Edward L. Hsiao

[GuerraCivil]

While true that combat victory stats are very difficult to verify the "top aces" are interesting case studies and they have been indeed studied:

The wiki seems to show quite good analysis of Johnie Johnson´s record:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnni...n_(RAF_officer)

Similar analysis seems to have been made on the claims of Aleksander Pokryshin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pokryshkin

At least both men seem to fit very comfortably to "verified ace" category! (with more than 5 air victories confirmed or likely by enemy records)

Gabby Gabreski was the top US ace in Europe, but I wonder if they have made any studies to check his record? I guess that Gabreski flew more combat missions than "average" USAAF fighter pilot in Europe and even after critical checking of his air victories Gabreski will likely remain as a top US ace in Europe during WW2...

A minor case but perhaps interesting: Pavel Kutakhov (long time C-in-C of Soviet Air Force) was credited with 13 air victories (individual) + 28 shared (!) in WW2. IIRC, of his individual victories 5 could be verified by German records - so he did make it an "ace" but perhaps with a overclaiming ratio of some 2,5:1 (+ shared ones). Rather "normal overclaim" ratio in WW2?

[David N]

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

Some of the records of German aces have been verified to great detail from the loss records of the Allied - I can think for example Marseille and some nightfighter aces - but how about the opposite?

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records? Who are the "verified" top Allied aces when it comes to shooting down German aircraft?

With the exception of Von Richthofen, Marseille's claims have probably been scrutinized more than any other fighter pilot. He over claimed after his big day of September 1, 1942 (of his 17 claims, 12 crashed or crash landed), but until then he was a reliable claimer. This was the judgement of his latest biographer.

[Nokose]

With Soviet claims on the eastern front it's not always an easy thing to determine as sometimes the pilots with just one victory in an area has to be taken into the picture. I mentioned in another post of 1 Bf 109 of JG 54 showed 10 Soviet pilots claiming in that area for the day. Also some German losses were contributed to AAA when there could have been a Soviet fighter that actually made the kill. Also the time of the Luftwaffe loss is not available to check as I tried to determine a I./JG 26 loss on the 14 Mar 43.

[Juha]

Originally Posted by David N

With the exception of Von Richthofen, Marseille's claims have probably been scrutinized more than any other fighter pilot. He over claimed after his big day of September 1, 1942 (of his 17 claims, 12 crashed or crash landed), but until then he was a reliable claimer. This was the judgement of his latest biographer.

In fact 12 real losses out of 17 claims still indicates reliable claiming even if H-J was even more reliable claimer earlier. And if you mean Colin D. Heaton's & Anne-Marie Lewis' book it has some problems.

Juha

[Juha]

Originally Posted by Nokose

With Soviet claims on the eastern front it's not always an easy thing to determine as sometimes the pilots with just one victory in an area has to be taken into the picture. I mentioned in another post of 1 Bf 109 of JG 54 showed 10 Soviet pilots claiming in that area for the day. Also some German losses were contributed to AAA when there could have been a Soviet fighter that actually made the kill. Also the time of the Luftwaffe loss is not available to check as I tried to determine a I./JG 26 loss on the 14 Mar 43.

Good points, Nokose!

[John Beaman]

Since Maj. George E. Preddy was a native of Greensboro, NC, I attempted to verify his claims for two big missions where he claimed multiple victories.

On July 18, 1944 he claimed 4 Ju-88s. None were there, but multiple Me-410s losses were. I think he mistook the 410 for Ju-88s. Probably from ZG 76. Look at views of both types from 6 o'clock and you can see how they look similar. Remember, in combat you have 1-5 seconds to ID, not hours as we latter day historians have, to determine what type it is.

His most famous mission on Aug 6, 1944 he was credited with 6 Bf 109s. That day JG 53 lost 4 destroyed and several damaged with extensive percentages. Close enough in my estimation, especially if the 109s were under repair for awhile.

[Andrey Kuznetsov]

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

Similar analysis seems to have been made on the claims of Aleksander Pokryshin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Pokryshkin

It isn't analysis, it is a fantasy.

Originally Posted by GuerraCivil

How detailed has been the verification of the air victory claims of top Allied aces (like Ivan Kozhedub) by Luftwaffe´s losses and other LW records?

As for East front, too little info has remained from Luftwaffe (especially for 1944) for such verification. Analysis of some episodes is possible, nothing more.