Seeking info on 1940 career of Fw Alfred Warrelmann of 15.(Z)/LG1

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

A recently auctioned photo shows the eight-victory scoreboard of Fw Alfred Warrelmann, a pilot in 15.(Z)/LG1 during 1939-40. This shows his a/c as L1+IL, and would have probably been taken in 1941. It has a notation that this is a nightfighter, which is borne out by the all-black camouflage.

http://www.ebay.at/itm/Foto-Deutsche...OIBUAA:US:3160

Here is a copy of that photo:

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-RGP...-RGP4xT7-L.jpg

Warrelmann's career has long been a problem for me due to incomplete 15-Staffel victory information that exists for the 1939-40 period. It appears that he probably scored seven of the eight victories reflected in this scoreboard during 1939-40, and that the eight visible in the photo, is a night fighter victory. Four of his victories were during the Polish Campaign of 1939, including two on 04.09.40, and two more on 09.09.39 (or one on 09.09.39, and another on 09.10.39 -- sources conflict). A fifth and sixth are recorded during the WC/FC on 16.05.40, and a seventh is suspected sometime during the period May to August, 1940, but is not recorded in any source of which I'm aware. He was reported WIA on 11.08.40, and may have been sidelined for an unknown to me period of time.

I'm thinking that someone who has concentrated on his nightfighter career may have uncovered an accurate accounting of his day victories during 1939-40, including perhaps the date of his elusive 7th day victory.

I have photos of him, but none that I know of which show his Bf110s while with I.-V.(Z)/LG1 during 1939-40, which I'd dearly love to find. I have the complete photo collection of the late Ludwig v. Eimannsberger, who wrote the definitive history of that unit, but there are no photos there known to be Warrelmann's a/c. There are two photos on P.179 of this book that show both sides of the scoreboard of his 3./NJG3 aircraft, the same a/c as in the recent auction, but victory dates are not readable.

Can anyone help?

[Harrie]

Hello Larry,

Recently i have already posted thread,s about Fw Warrelmann ,the reason of it is after 2 year,s of study and research we,ve found this plane !!
It,s not far from my place and we did a premature search. On wich we found 2 weight,s under the wing [ailerion] .sorry don,t know the exact name of it .
Please i like to have a copy of the photo,s .I Knew there were 8 victories
4 in poland PZL,s and 2 France Hawks. He has been wounded after downing a Stirling in Sept 1941 according my info.

[Larry Hickey]

Harrie,

Just to let you know that I got your msg and will respond soon. I must leave right now. Do you have any information on the dates of Warrelmann's "missing" 7th victory? I have excellent photos of his nightfighter aircraft with victory scoreboards on both sides, plus a good photo of him in uniform. I'll be happy to share these with you.

Was his crash site previously unknown, or were his remains recovered from it and buried somewhere elsewhere during the war.

Where do you live?

Regards,

[Harrie]

Hello Larry,

The date was actually 7-Aug-42. Previously flown by Alfred Warrelmann. The Ries source lists another pilot as I recall, but the 8 claims on the tail match Warrelmann's.

Bf 110D-3, 3686, Warrelmann, Fw. Alfred, 8, I., 3., NJG 3, , L1+IL, CC+MP, 8 victories on tail, including 4 Polish., , Spring 1941?, , Deutschland? Sicily?, Ries, Rudder Markings, p.82; Held/Nauroth, The Defense of the Reich, p.105, 109 photos., Mankau/Petrick, Messerschmitt Bf 110, Me 210 & Me 410, p.324, , -, F, , , MIAG at Braunschweig in Oct-40
Bf 110D-3, 3686, n.n., , I., , NJG 3, , , CC+MP, , 07-Aug-42, Crashed due to engine trouble. Crew FSA., Non-combat flight 'H', 7-Aug-43 per Balss, incorrect based on Gen.Qu. volume., Lw.Bfh.Mitte/Nachtjagd, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #6)-Vol.10; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, II, p.179, Mankau/Petrick, Messerschmitt Bf 110, Me 210 & Me 410, p.324, Vlachtwedde, 100%, F, , , MIAG at Braunschweig in Oct-40
Last edited by Jim P.; 21st October 2013 at 23:37. Reason: fix

This is what i,ve got on 3-8-1941 a Stirling SW Werder [nearby Bremen] this was his 7th or 8th vic. By this he was also WIA .
Thanks to Jim P.

Larry, as you can see ,the crew is NN and FSA ,hopefully there are some members how have info by name.s of the crew.
The plane crash site is nearby my place !! ,after 2 years research and talking with elderly people who wittnessed the crash i,ve got all information about this plane !. Only not name of crew -there where no losses ,but for sure it was not flown by Fw Warrelmann .
The crash site is 10 miles from my place ,i,ve allways be integrated by this crash and it,s not known by much people.
After first site research weve discovered the weight,s beneath the plane ,i,ve got pictures of it . It would be great if you can sent me the pictures of Warrelmann and his Bf-110 .

Hope to hear from you.

[Jim P.]

Warrelmann was injured on 8-Sep-41 in a different machine. I have no other entries for him after this date.

Bf 110C-4, 3649, Warrellmann, Fw. Albert, , I., 3., NJG 3, , , , , 08-Sep-41, Crew WIA due to enemy fire., 7/8-Sep, 3./NJG 2, Bf OK per Balss. At Gadsdorf per loss., Lw.Bfh.Mitte/Nachtjagd, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #4)-Vol.6; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, p.29; Balss, Deutsche Nachtjagd, II, p.33, Mankau/Petrick, Messerschmitt Bf 110, Me 210 & Me 410, p.324, Wunstorf bei Crossen, 100%, F, Bf Uffz. Bieg, , MIAG at Braunschweig in Sep-40

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

His claims are as follows:-

With 3./LG 1

1st September 1939 Gefr PZL P-24 Warsaw/Okecie 3500 metres u/c
4th September 1939 Gefr PZL P-24 NW Rozan 1725 hrs 2500 metre Nr.1
9th September 1939 Gefr PZL 15km East of Kielce 1105 hrs 1200 metres Nr.2
10th September 1939 Gefr PZL P-23 Debe Wielke 1410 hrs 100 metrs Nr.3

With 15./LG 1

16th May 1940 Uffz Curtis Hawk 75 X 2 both NW Pontfaverger at 0655 hrs and 3000 metres Nr.4-5.

With I./NJG 3

3rd August 1941 Fw Stirling SW Werder 148 hrs Nr.6

Regards

Johannes

[Larry Hickey]

Johannes,

Thanx for posting. We have these seven victories, but his scoreboard indicates that he had 8, of which seven you have recorded. We think that there was another day victory sometime in 1940. That is the one that we are seeking.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Given the length of the German victory confirmation process, the 8th victory visible on the scoreboard might be a claim that was rejected by the RLM.

Johannes lists 7 claims, one of which was unconfirmed, but still appears on the scoreboard. Or if the scoreboard is supposed to show only confirmed claims, two victories are missing from the list.

AFAIK, the victories claims were painted on the pilot's aircraft when the claim was made, not when it was confirmed months later. So dating a picture by the number of victories visible on it and comparing it to the known list of confirmed victories of a German pilot had always seem a risky business to me.

[Larry Hickey]

Laurent,

You are absolutely correct that it is a fools errand to try to compare rudder victory tabs with "confirmed" victories at any particular time, except perhaps at the time of photo shoots when RK were awarded or at other such PR times. I've encountered this problem many times. It is also evident in some units that BF victory claims were included, which means the total won't match the victories claimed/awarded to a particular pilot.

However, in the case of Warrelmann, the victory information for 15.(Z)/LG1 for 1940 is not complete, and there is reason to believe that he had another day victory, probably during the WC/FC or the BoB, that is among the unit's missing information.

Hi Larry Hickey

I believe that the Stirling Alfred Warrelmann claimed on the morning of 03/08/41 was the plane my great uncle was on as 2nd pilot.

It was Short Stirling N3663 MG H of 7 Squadron on a mission to bomb Berlin, departed Oakington at 22:18 on 02/08/41. They were shot down by a night fighter and three crew survived as POWs. The other four including my great uncle were killed and are buried in Berlin.

The crew were

F/O CI Rolfe Captain (POW)
Sgt Burrows L R 2nd Pilot (my great Uncle, killed)
Sgt Tout C A Navigator (POW)
Sgt Alder J N Wireless Operator (killed)
Sgt Amos E R Front Gunner (killed)
Sgt Young M A Rear Gunner
Sgt Merrells Engineer/Air Gunner (POW)

It would be really appreciated if you could send me a copy of the photos mentioned above of Alfred Warrelmann and his plane for my research folder.

Kind regards

Danny