Seeking location and details of crash of possible Do17P-1, 6M+JM of 4.(F)/11, during the WC/FC "bei Moisselles," France

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

Here is another tough one. I think that this crash photo shows a Do17P-1 of 4.(F)/11 that crashed "bei Moisselles," which is about 15kms N of Paris, France. Presumably this would have been during either May or June, 1940. This unit used blue individual a/c letters, ie "J" in this case. The dark letter and shape of the Staffel code "M" are diagnostic for this unit during this period.

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-8qJ...-8qJHjPz-L.jpg

1) I'm seeking additional photos of the wreckage of this a/c which someone may have in their collection. Hopefully, these may contain caption or visual info that might help further ID this crash.

2) I've carefully mapped out all the losses by 4.(F)/11 in May-June, 1940, producing 6 possibilities. Two of these are believed to have known unit codes (6M+BM. 6M+CM), which aren't "J."Three of the others aren't anywhere near "Moisselles." The one remaining is the following but it's still not very close:

20 May 1940: "4.(F)/11 Dornier Do17P-1. Shot down by Adj Beschet and Sgt Montfort of II/1 also Sgt Cucumel and Sgt Colomes of GC II/9 during reconnaissance sortie south of Compiègne. Crashed and burned out at Auger-St-Vincent, west of Crépy-en-Valois, 1.25 p.m. FF Fw Paul Klafke, BO Uffz Fritz Harlander, and BF Obergefr Max Beer killed. Aircraft 100% write-off"

My Note on this EoE LW Loss DB entry: "Auger-St-Vincent is only about 35kms –20-25 miles- ENE of Moisselles, but there is a large area of woodland between them, and Peter C. seems to have this one pretty precisely located. Crew deaths consistent with crash condition."

Does anyone have more information that might point to this being the loss in question? Perhaps photos exist of the crash at "Auter-St-Vincent" that would eliminate this one as a possibility? Does anyone have any other suggested locations for this incident?

3) I've found a photo of what is very likely this a/c before it crashed. Besides the code 6M+JM, this carries some kind of nickname on the nose, which appears to begin with a "J." Note that the a/c code is also "J." It almost looks like "Judea," which is part of Palestine, but that seems highly unlikely on a German a/c of that period. Does anyone have a better image of this photo, or other images of it showing the name more clearly? Can anyone come up with a good candidate for what this name is? This was won in an eBay auction (230322859763) by "ro373" on 07.02.09 and perhaps whoever that person is could help???

http://ihra.smugmug.com/photos/i-DJB...-DJBCmBz-L.jpg

4) And finally, I'm seeking photos of any other crashes by 4.(F)/11 Do17Ps during the WC/FC which might help document this units losses and activities. These would all be coded: 6M+_M.

Thanx for your help.

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Chris Goss]

There was another photo from the same seller but just showed wreckage. Are you sure that the J is blue-could it be yellow or red?

[Larry Hickey]

Chris,

Yes, it could be red, not likely yellow, but the best estimate, and the shape of the "M" indicates 4.(F)/11. However, I'm open to other interpretations of these markings if we can find a suitable candidate down "bei Moisselles."

Did you save a copy of the other wreckage photo on auction, or can you provide an auction #?

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator