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  #11  
Old 16th October 2019, 17:23
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

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Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
It concentrated on close support when the most effective use would have been interdiction.
No, it was not. The Soviets did not have in sufficient numbers aircraft suitable for deep air support at their disposal. I'm again want to highlight that at any point in the war VVS had no such assets as US Ninth Air Force. So concentration on close air support was in fact the best way to use available equipment.

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Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
Soviet pilots' fighting spirit left also a lot to be desired. Even in 1944 Soviet fighter formations superior in numbers and equipment often fled from battle.
It could be viewed the other way - VVS aircraft completed their mission and returned to base safely, successfully evading opposition. Is this incompetence? Or maybe this tactic was quite smart? After all, it's Finnish fighters who needed to engage, especially in the summer of 1944. And they let Soviet aircraft to escape. So what side in your example failed to accomplish the mission and was less adept in tactics?

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Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
without extra money for scoring (yes, the regime that promised to eliminate money actually paid extra for scoring etc. Hypocrites!)
Yes, Soviet pilots were paid for aerial victories. So what? What was incompetent, negligent and even criminal in this?
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  #12  
Old 17th October 2019, 12:45
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

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Originally Posted by Graham Boak View Post
And there are immense numbers of books and theoretical studies arguing this very point, which likely can never be settled. However it is an alternative way of applying air power, not a backward one.
It's realy interesting topic, Graham. Can you advice any books or articles with compearing efficency of these two tactics in WWII? I mean CAS vs interdiction.
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  #13  
Old 17th October 2019, 17:08
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

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Originally Posted by Andrei Demjanko View Post
It could be viewed the other way - VVS aircraft completed their mission and returned to base safely, successfully evading opposition. Is this incompetence? Or maybe this tactic was quite smart? After all, it's Finnish fighters who needed to engage, especially in the summer of 1944. And they let Soviet aircraft to escape. So what side in your example failed to accomplish the mission and was less adept in tactics?



Yes, Soviet pilots were paid for aerial victories. So what? What was incompetent, negligent and even criminal in this?

1. Completing their mission by e.g. abandoning the bombers they were supposed to escort?


2. You don't see anything perverse in that an ideology based on abolishing money altogether actually resorted to capitalist-bourgeoisie methods of incentive? Weren't capitalist-bourgeoisie to be hanged by their own intestines?


3. You should compare the strength ratio between Finnish and Soviet air forces in 1944 summer. The numerical superiority of the Soviet forces was closer to 10 to 1. Perhaps the Soviet "scientific" art of war needed more than 10 to 1 superiority...
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  #14  
Old 17th October 2019, 19:09
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

Careful Jukka. Such incendiary remarks are... well, incendiary.


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  #15  
Old 18th October 2019, 03:26
Andrei Demjanko Andrei Demjanko is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
1. Completing their mission by e.g. abandoning the bombers they were supposed to escort?
But you do not know what was their mission and what were their orders. Why do you think it was close escort mission? What if this was a diversionary sweep? What if by evading action they were luring Finnish fighters to chase them and away from the area to clear it for Soviet strike aircraft arriving some time behind them. What if there was another Soviet fighter formation above, which had been unnoticed by Finnish pilots and the first formation which evaded combat was a bait?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
2. You don't see anything perverse in that an ideology based on abolishing money altogether actually resorted to capitalist-bourgeoisie methods of incentive? Weren't capitalist-bourgeoisie to be hanged by their own intestines?
What I can not see is how all of this relates to or discloses supposed Soviet incompetence?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
3. You should compare the strength ratio between Finnish and Soviet air forces in 1944 summer. The numerical superiority of the Soviet forces was closer to 10 to 1. Perhaps the Soviet "scientific" art of war needed more than 10 to 1 superiority...
If the Soviets had 10:1 superiority so why not to use it? Just like modest numbers do not necessarily mean prowess and expertise, superiority in numbers and/or materiel do not mean lack of tactical or operational skills. Where is incompetence?
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  #16  
Old 20th October 2019, 01:48
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
E.g. against Finns in the summer of 1944 Soviet air power employment was very backward. It concentrated on close support when the most effective use would have been interdiction.
Quote:
Their almost unlimited resources in manpower, materiel and fuel enabled the soviets to isolate the areas of main effort from the air by large concentration of bombers and ground attack aircraft, with fighter escorts
Quote:
... the Soviets, in the areas of main efforts, had begun commiting lager numbers of fighter-bombers, with which they frequently brought all traffic to a complete standstill to a depth of up to 12 miles in the German rear
https://www.afhra.af.mil/Portals/16/...090521-040.pdf

Also, interdiction was not unknown for VVS but with the available aircraft as Il-2 and not realy perfect educated flying personal, the CAS works better. If you know, who is the "god of war" according soviet difinition, you understand why the CAS was so important in soviet operation, especially by openings.

But if necessary, VVS also could other: one prominent sample is the Lwow-Sandomir operation, where the planned counter-atack by german 8.(??) PzD was interdicted by VVS with very negative impact for whole german strategy.
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  #17  
Old 20th October 2019, 22:14
Jukka Juutinen Jukka Juutinen is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

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Originally Posted by kalender1973 View Post
...not realy perfect educated flying personal, th...

Why was the aircrew training even in 1944 so lacking? Because of the incompetence of the Soviet system.
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  #18  
Old 21st October 2019, 00:42
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

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Originally Posted by Jukka Juutinen View Post
Why was the aircrew training even in 1944 so lacking? Because of the incompetence of the Soviet system.
I would say, due deficiency of aircraft fuel... The Soviet Union has improved in the years before WW2 many of their capabilities but still suffers on many areas: chemistry, oil and fuel production, aluminium production, HE production, the list is long.

Under these condition, I don't believe, the soviet leadership and system was incompetent

By the way, the training level was also improved in compare to 42-43.
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  #19  
Old 21st October 2019, 11:09
mars mars is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

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Originally Posted by edwest2 View Post
A difficult subject but I thought it was worth mentioning. Scheduled for 2 February 2020.

https://www.amazon.com/Myths-Legends.../dp/1526742268

Usual disclaimer,
Ed

When I saw the author is Boris Sokolov, without hesitation, I decide I will skip it
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  #20  
Old 21st October 2019, 11:11
mars mars is offline
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Re: Myths and Legends of the Eastern Front: Reassessing the Great Patriotic War [off topic]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrei Demjanko View Post
the incompetent, negligent and even criminal way the war was run – is overlooked

Yeah, the author managed to make an insult to both Soviet and Germans with a single sentence
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