F-86 vs MiG 15, the claims...

[Gizmo]

Originally Posted by Daniel Nole

The V-VS losses were 24 MiGs and the PLAAF loss 43, with a total of 67 MiG destroyed.
Worst day, and the record in the Korean war was the Jun 30, 1953 with 16 MiGs destroyed(14 PLAAF and 2 V-VS).

Hi,

What is your source for PLAAF losses? According to "Red Devils over Korean Sky" by I Seidov, PLAAF losses for June 53 were 11 MiGs and 7 pilots KIA.

Regards,
Szymon

[Daniel Nole]

Originally Posted by Gizmo

Hi,

What is your source for PLAAF losses? According to "Red Devils over Korean Sky" by I Seidov, PLAAF losses for June 53 were 11 MiGs and 7 pilots KIA.

Regards,
Szymon

Well is a combination of differente sources, but the mentioned 11 PLAAF only losses for the whole month sound really too optimistic and that mean also a hipotetic a lot of overclaims by the USAF. Some 32 overclaims?
Actually this numbers are revised because the official one published some year before and still in many publications were biggest and mentioned 77 MiGs shot down this month!

After USAF claims, PLAAF MiGs were engaged the:

Jun 5 ,1953 (six MiGs shot down , a double for Vermont Garrison)

Jun 7 , 1953(three MiGs, included one for future astronaute Edwin Aldrin)

Jun 10, 1953(two MiGs for James Jabara)

Jun 18, 1953(three MiGs for Ralph Parr, Loonie Moore and Jabara)

Jun 24, 1953(eight MiGs , a double for Foster L. Smith and another for Vermont Garrison)

Jun 26, 1953(two MiGs for Thomas H. McQuade and Vermont Garrison)

Jun 29,1953(five MiGs for Nott, Howell, Palmer and Jensen all 51th FIW and John Granville-White of the RAF but assigned in the 51th FIW)

Jun 30, 1953(14 MiGs divided in: 12 for the 4th FIW and 2 for the 51th FIW)The two V-VS MIGs shot down this day were credited one to the 4th FIW and the other for a pilot of the RCAF assigned to the 51th FIW)

Regards

Daniel Nole

[Gizmo]

Daniel,
As I know at last months of the war KPAFAC had three MIGs regiments, two of them over PLAAF command. In my opinion there is possible that most victims of 30 June clashes were from regiment that is simply not counted in PLAAF statistics. KPAFAC were poorly trained, so very heavy losses in one combat are highly possible. BTW Seidov claimed that on 30 June VVS suffered only one lose - a MiG from 224 IAP, pilot bailed out.

Here are PLAAF MIGs losses at last months of the war (according to Seidov book)
November 52 - 7 destroyed and 4 damaged, 2 pilots KIA
December 52 - 6 destroyed, 12 damaged (according to "Red Wings over Yalu" by Xiaoming Zhang 12 destroyed)
January 53 - 12 MiGs destroyed 4 pilots KIA, 1 Tu-2 destroyed
February 53 - 7 destroyed, 10 damaged, 5 KIA
March 53 - 13 destroyed, 11 damaged
April 53 - 15 destroyed, 3 pilots KIA
May 53 - 27 destroyed, 10 pilots KIA
June 53 - 11 destroyed, 7 pilots KIA
July 53 - 17 destroyed, 9 pilots KIA

[Daniel Nole]

Thank Gizmo and already coincide about the time of start of operations of the fresh trained MiG-15 pilots of the KPAFAC.

Checking yesterday the Jun 10, 1953 I have finded one claim by Fedorets for one F-86s , the kill is also related in the book of Osprey "Soviet MiG-15 Aces of the Korean War".
After the soviet version , Fedorets firing from some 200 m hit the Sabre in the left wing , center section and this one broke up. His MiG was damaged by debris and landed taking with him a part of the left wing slat of the Sabre.The regimental commander told to the technicians "Maj Fedorets has saved us from having to search for the wreckage of the aircraft he shot shot down.He's brought back the evidence himself".

Well the point , aparently only one F-86s shot down this day and was by AAA. The F-86F-30 52-4339 of Capt Robert Coury of the 18th FBG, 12th FS was part of the D Flight lead by Major Howard Ebersole in a fighter-bomber mission againts Chinese supply dumps.
Maj Ebersole had see the plume of fire coming of the tailpipe of Coury F-86 after the AAA hit and had also checked his ejection after clearing "Old Papa San" mountain. The Sabre exploded as soon as he ejected and Coury was taked POW. Any mention of MiGs in the report.
Fedorets speak also about "Air Cover for the Suphun power station" and eight F-86 attacked and engaged. Other source speak about other two F-86 shot down this day but in any case and after the testimonies of that, Coury cannot be the victim of Fedorets or other MiG this day.

Regards

Daniel

[Daniel Nole]

A very good and complet document. Was write in 1952 by Squadron Leader Harbison. Information about MiGs are limited, but is normal, was write in 1952.

http://scilib.narod.ru/Avia/Sabre_vs_MiG/sabres.htm

Daniel

[Daniel Nole]

Something of the other side. A Chinese film with PLAAF MiGs about the time of the Korean War. Of Course, is only a film like many others of Hollywood like the films of Alan Ladd, Robert Mitchum or William Holden, etc. Nice to see something of the other side.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7Rm2zFcX_c

[steve51]

Daniel Nole,
Thanks for posting that Chinese clip. It seems war movies all over the world are the same. Some nice clips of Migs.

[John Beaman]

Great thread guys. Thanks to all of you. So, what's the bottom line here? Did we grossly overclaim or just some? Did we understate our losses to MiGs to save face?

Understating losses is something all air forces do if they count a certain way. Recall the Schwinfert mission of 14-Oct-43 where we admitted officially losing 60 B-17s. We also had a further 30 return that were fit only for spare parts and were scrapped. Why are they not counted as losses and Luftwaffe victories?

[JoeB]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

Great thread guys. Thanks to all of you. So, what's the bottom line here?
1. Did we grossly overclaim or just some?
2. Did we understate our losses to MiGs to save face?
3. Understating losses is something all air forces do if they count a certain way. Recall the Schwinfert mission of 14-Oct-43 where we admitted officially losing 60 B-17s. We also had a further 30 return that were fit only for spare parts. Why are they not counted as losses and Luftwaffe victories?

1. I think the figures are in an earlier post in this thread; UN fighters claimed around 800 MiG's destroyed (the vast majority by F-86's); apparently around 550-600 were destroyed (319 Sovet per Seidov's book, 224 Chinese per their official figures, probably several dozen NK, based on No Gum-sok's estimate that 100 NK MiG's were lost to all causes). That's quite accurate claiming by WWII standards. It's corroborated by the figures for certain sub periods of the war where individual Soviet losses are well known and Chinese a/c were not heavily involved, the % is similar. OTOH B-29 credits for MiG's were almost wholly erroneous, perhaps 3 destroyed v 27 credits and 2 of the real kills were not officially credited. B-26's downed 2 MiG's according to Soviet and Chinese accounts (one each) whereas no credits were awarded on the US side to B-26 gunners. Such a random relationship of bomber claims and actual victories though was also typical of WWII.

2. No evidence of systematic deliberate understatment, and actual understatement, which as you say depends on how you want to count, doesn't change the figures substantially. See the recent F-84 thread for a comparison of the monthly figures in 1953 Statistics Digest for F-84 air combat losses v incident by incident comparison with benefit of knowing the enemy claims. The actual total is relatively slightly higher, but in some cases the Stats Digest numbers for particular months are too high; there are simply errors in that table. It's similar for the F-86 and other types.

3. Two distinctions which might be made here are firstly, accounts and figures released to the public at the time v what records said, and secondly whether record keeping in USAAF in WWII was the same across numbered AF's or same as USAF in Korea, not necessarily. The number of a/c written off due to air combat damage was a small % of the total air combat loss in Korea*; in a few cases a/c are mentioned in unit historical reports as 'lost' (to the front line unit) which were actually later repaired and used by other units in combat.

*the largest proportional discrepancy between Stats Digest and case by case analysis is for B-29's. The 1953 Stats Digest gives 17 B-29's lost in air combat, one in July 1950, to Yak-9, the other 16 would be due to MiG-15's. It omits 2 RB-29's (operations and results still classified at that time and the column heading *is* 'B-29'), 1 B-29 outright known MiG loss in the records, 1 a/c believed lost to AAA which may have been lost to MiG's**, 1 a/c written off due to MiG damage, 2 a/c which may have been written off due to MiG damage (badly damaged by MiG's, their Individual A/c Record Cards or other proof of repair cannot be found), 1 a/c which may have been written off to either AAA or MiG.** All other B-29's damaged by MiG's (and a couple by Yak-9 and La-11) over Korea were repaired, AFAIK, as evidenced by their IARC's and/or presence on later missions.
**In the raids of Jun 10 1952 where MiG-15's first operated effectively at night, 1 B-29 was recorded as lost to MiG's, one to AAA (based on surviving crew accounts) one damaged final fate unknown. Soviet pilots made several claims, but it seems possible those were duplicate claims for the 1 B-29, rather than errors on US side as to loss/damage cause of the other two.

Joe

[John Beaman]

Thanks, Joe