Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 18th July 2018, 00:48
edwest2 edwest2 is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 7,478
edwest2 will become famous soon enoughedwest2 will become famous soon enough
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Beale View Post
A little misleading perhaps. ULTRA is simply a security classification for decrypts of machine ciphers. In Europe that meant the Enigma machine (in its various models) and the Lorenz Geheimschreiber teleprinter. In the files we are discussing those are the only sources, so far as I know. The Lorenz was used at the higher command levels, whereas just about every ship, army or Luftwaffe unit had its own Enigma.
Thank you for clarifying this Nick.

Ed
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 18th July 2018, 00:48
edNorth edNorth is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,126
edNorth is on a distinguished road
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Bruce, Did you mention the extensive card files used as helping aid?
I have seen these notes, you need no further proof.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 18th July 2018, 00:57
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 533
Bruce Dennis is on a distinguished road
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Ed, yes the card index was the source of much detail in these and other reports, and cards had information from any and all sources. One of the most common 'notes' within the reports was to say that a message was 'almost certainly' or 'highly likely' to have come from a particular source: this usually means that T/A (Traffic Analysis) has identified the source but verification is lacking.

Bruce
__________________
http://www.filephotoservice.co.uk/
RESEARCH AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES & OTHER UK INSTITUTIONS
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 18th July 2018, 01:21
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,782
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
Well I must say it has proved harder to prove my statement than I expected, but here goes:

(These extracts are inserted as a ‘NOTE’ after individual decrypted messages.)
HW5/249 – CX/MSS/2561 – after a decrypted message this appears:
NOTES 1) … above was addressed to Kommodore JG.3 from Stab. JG.3’
2) Major EWALD is known to be connected with JG.3

(These two notes are inserting information from other sources to identify the recipient of the message. Major EWALD signed the message but the addressee was not part of the text. No source is cited and if it had been from other CX/MSS traffic it would always be spelled out.)

HW5/247 – a note explains the meaning of ‘Q code’ within a message;
HW5/227 – notes adding identity and location of NJ units mentioned in preceding text.

The naval TO/xx series of messages are filed within each weeks summary and focus on KM traffic in the Mediterranean. From memory, some messages that reported shipping or convoys were followed by notes referring to other sightings from non-TO or CX/MSS sources. Also these notes might name likely identities of the subjects, either Allied or Axis. I have not taken the time to dig out any examples of TO/xx pages.

Bruce
I wouldn’t see the Ewald reference as conclusive, although I agree it may conceivably have come from elsewhere than ULTRA. The Q code was a standard international radio procedure, wasn’t it? Interpretation wouldn’t therefore entail recourse to secret intelligence. Equally, map references are commonly appended to place names so yes, an external reference is being used but an open one. For that matter they must have used a German dictionary now and then!

The files you’ve cited, I’m not familiar with (I’ve barely touched 1943 in HW 5) so I don’t know the TO series. In 1942, where I’ve done some limited work, any naval messages included were given a different form of serial and don’t seem to differ significantly from the naval ULTRA in DEFE 3 in my limited experience.

Perhaps more to the point is that in 1940 there is correspondence from BP to service ministries asking to be kept abreast of other intelligence as an aid to interpreting decrypts and thus getting the most out of them. Apparently there was a school of thought that Enigma decryption should be kept “pure” and not influenced by other material. They had to explain that they deciphered first, interpreted afterward. However where you really get composite material, pulling all sources together are e.g. the SALU (Saltmarsh/Lucas) and Operational Watch reports in other HW series.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 18th July 2018, 01:25
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,782
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by edNorth View Post
Bruce, Did you mention the extensive card files used as helping aid?
I have seen these notes, you need no further proof.
Which cards are we talking about? Bletchely Park maintained a huge card index but the story was that it was burned after the war. TNA when I first went used to have card indexes including a very useful one of codenames of operations etc.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 18th July 2018, 01:37
edNorth edNorth is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,126
edNorth is on a distinguished road
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Mr. Beale, are we talking?
Short while ago I asked and demanded removal of MY own comment.
But no response. Why?
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 18th July 2018, 02:02
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,782
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by edNorth View Post
Mr. Beale, are we talking?
Short while ago I asked and demanded removal of MY own comment.
But no response. Why?
Possibly because (a) I’m not the only moderator on this board (b) I’m a volunteer helper not a full time employee so I neither read nor remember every last thing posted here (c) I like think that I have a life beyond TOCH.

But let’s try and stay on topic, please.
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 18th July 2018, 02:41
edNorth edNorth is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,126
edNorth is on a distinguished road
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

(d) You some time try be nice, right?
(d2) Item I regret acting in good faith on.

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showth...t=51472&page=2
Poster gave false ID for the photos, code posted does NOT show there at all, therefore skewing my answer immensely, and I ask you to remove it.
(e) Politely.
(f) For all´s benefit, remove incorrect "conclution", only cirkumstatial and in hindsight likely wrong. Question also hints at asker likely knowing answer and fishing for other views.
(g) Please.

Last edited by edNorth; 18th July 2018 at 03:02. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 18th July 2018, 11:33
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 533
Bruce Dennis is on a distinguished road
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

My comment concerning HW5 not being 100% ULTRA has lead to some debate. It was intended to help Byron, who you may remember started this thread with a question about potential information in an unspecified ULTRA document.
I feel vaguely responsible, therefore, for having introduced the drift to how 'pure' is the content of the series of files at Kew containing reports based on Axis decrypted high grade machine traffic. So, I hope Byron has found a path to follow to get the information he seeks and that all others get something from the observations of the contents of HW5. I humbly apologise to all those who are distressed to find that the HW5 series of files includes tidbits of information from other sources, but it is no big deal. They were reports: they were intended to pass on information from one source but when the writer needed to add context or cast further light on the subject he did so and chose his language accordingly.
The original intercepts, then the broken texts and eventually the translations were each handled with discipline. The ‘notes’ from Allied intelligence officers could appear at the first stage of the process, below the original German text, adding extra information for the benefit of everyone further down the chain. At some point, if a message was to be kept, typical practice was to cut it out and paste it into a ledger. If it was not to be kept, it went in the bin.
Every day a report was compiled by the duty officer(s) from the intercepts processed during the day at the end of the process described above. These reports are now held at Kew under the series name HW5. It should be clear from this that the reports contain excerpts from messages and were not intended to do anything beyond pass on the useful facts. The practice of adding notes was part of making these reports: the object was to pass on whatever would be useful from ULTRA and the notes were immediately recognisable as notes and not to be confused with message content. And, to be pedantic, the notes could be based on any source as long as it was reliable.


Bruce
__________________
http://www.filephotoservice.co.uk/
RESEARCH AT THE NATIONAL ARCHIVES & OTHER UK INSTITUTIONS
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 18th July 2018, 11:44
Nick Beale's Avatar
Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Exeter, England
Posts: 5,782
Nick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura aboutNick Beale has a spectacular aura about
Re: ULTRA doc of September 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruce Dennis View Post
The practice of adding notes was part of making these reports: the object was to pass on whatever would be useful from ULTRA and the notes were immediately recognisable as notes and not to be confused with message content. And, to be pedantic, the notes could be based on any source as long as it was reliable.

Bruce
I quite agree Bruce. As I see it the translation (or paraphrase) was purely deciphered material but the comments, notes and interpolations in double brackets drew on all available knowledge from covert or open sources.

Attached is the note I mentioned about "contamination" (from HW 14/8).
__________________
Nick Beale
http://www.ghostbombers.com
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
German bomber units in Italy September 1943 Guaido Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 22nd October 2017 17:23
1./(F)123 Losses 1943 Melvin Brownless Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 43 30th January 2016 12:33
Schnellkampfgeschwader 10 September 1943 keith A Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 27th October 2015 12:55
Hooton's Luftwaffe Loss Totals - request for clarification Paul Thompson Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 94 20th July 2012 22:24
Ju88 raids on Kos September 1943 Brian Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 17th May 2010 16:28


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 15:52.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net