claims Il-2 and Il-2 m.h

[focusfocus]

Hello all

In the lists of victories,one regularly finds Il-2 and Il-2 m.h=mit Heckschutze/with rear gunner.
Is there a particular reason by RLM for making the difference between the claim of an Il-2 and Il-2 m.h?....promotions?points for obtainations decorations?others reasons?.....

Thank's in advance
Michel

[Evgeny Velichko]

Also, Il-2 with reargunner were usually claimed as Il-4, Il-7 and even Il-9.
As for ZG1, they used Il-4 for reargunned Il-2 very often.

[oquaig]

The original IL-2 was a single seat aircraft. The M.H. designation is for the later 2 seat (rear gunner) model. The two seat model came out in the fall of 1942 and both served together throughout 1943.

[Johannes]

Guys

Always thought that Il-4's were DB-3's, but I am no expert. Il-2's I agree also listed as Il-7's and also Il-5's later in the war.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

But claiming was slightly different between units, some units seemed to round-up/down times to nearest five minutes, JG 52 seemed to round of LaGG-3/Lavochkin-5 to just LaGG, and most Sowiet aircraft were known by many different codes i.e Il-2 is also known as Vultee, ZKP-57, V-11 and R-3, are are recorded on the mikrofilms in all these guises!.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Johannes.

Problem is, that as You noted, Il-4 was a modified and renamed two-engined bomber DB-3F.

But, some Luftwaffe units used "Il-4" for Il-4, and some units used "Il-4" (-5, -7, -9) for Il-2 with gunner.

[Johannes]

Hi Evgeny

Don't think I came across a mentioning of Il-9 in the mikrofilms, and myself tried to use just one definition for each aircraft type i.e Il-2.

But I guess the unit preferences/variations has defeated me. I remember "curtiss" seemed to have many meanings.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[oquaig]

Originally Posted by Johannes

Guys

Always thought that Il-4's were DB-3's, but I am no expert. Il-2's I agree also listed as Il-7's and also Il-5's later in the war.

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

But claiming was slightly different between units, some units seemed to round-up/down times to nearest five minutes, JG 52 seemed to round of LaGG-3/Lavochkin-5 to just LaGG, and most Sowiet aircraft were known by many different codes i.e Il-2 is also known as Vultee, ZKP-57, V-11 and R-3, are are recorded on the mikrofilms in all these guises!.

Hi Johannes,

A quick question: what period of the war are you looking at claims for ?
Luftwaffe claims for the beginning of the war were very confused as the Luftwaffe pilots were encountering aircraft the they no recognition books for. As the war progressed their recognition books improved and claims were more accurately recorded. I can help if I have more information about what you are looking for. I might suggest we restart your question on the Allied and Soviet Air Forces page so as not to go off topic here.

OR: You can get a copy of W. R. Taylor's book: "Combat Aircraft of the World" (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...orld&kn=&isbn=)
And the best book I have ever found on the Soviet Air Force development and aircraft types: Lennart Andersson's "Soviet Aircraft and Aviation" (https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...&afn_sr=impact)

Regards
oquaig

[Johannes]

Hi Oquaig

The mikrofilms cover the entire Luftwaffe war until December 1944. Most units started entering on a daily sheet, East and West around 23rd July 1942(but it varies), this handwritten sheet gives time,type, rank, claimant, area/grid reference and altitude. Prior to 23rd July 1942 there are typed-out claims for individual staffel/gruppe, these give only date, time, rank, claimant and type....much less information. There are also mikrofilms for individual pilots giving date and time only, these are in alpha order, but only Kr-Le, the lastly a micro film for individual staffels giving date and time only!

AS I say I tried to standardise the types, i.e all the variations, and variant I marked as Il-2's. Best Il-2 experten were Kittel and Brendel with 90+ each. Constable and Tolliver state Hartmann got seventy, but by memory it's about fifteen. Il-2's flew close to the ground to protect there more vunerable bellies, Hartmann seems to have stayed at high altitude!

It seems that not only was the Il-2 the hardiest and most difficult Sowiet aircraft to bring-down, but also the most dangerous. Kittel himself was lost because to was too-low to bail-out of his Fw190 after attacking Il-2's.

Kind Regards

Johannes

[Evgeny Velichko]

Johannes:

Several dosens of experten of Ostfront died under Il-2 fire. Kittle was just a top of an Iceberg.

[Rainer]

It appears that the intelligence section of the Luftwaffe was not always up to date with the latest changes in the Soviet aircraft production, but to be honest, most Russian pilots weren't aware of the newest aircraft types in the inventory of the VVS either, as incidents like the downing of a Su-2 by Pokryshkin showed.

The Soviet Union began to built the Vultee V-11 in license, but probably unknown to the Germans the production was stopped after building just 31 aircraft as the type proved to be unsuitable for the intended ground attack role. With a similar silhouette to that of the Il-2 the identification as "Vultee" or "V-11" can be explained, but who knows if one of the claims was for one of the rare V-11 which were employed as liaison aircraft by the VVS during the war.

The RLM published aircraft recognition books during the war with the title "Die wichtigsten Feindflugzeuge in Wort und Bild", each year in an updated edition. To have a copy of them could probably help with the aircraft designations mentioned in microfilms.