BF 109G-10 77022. New gen

[Freddy]

Originally Posted by veltro

Definitely. Especially when comparing the rear-view photo with the frontal one, where the same area has been completely removed (looted would be the right word?) being clearly the subject of some "souvenir hunter" or of some civilian living in the area, as scrap metal was very valuable at the time and I have more than one reports of entire aicraft being completely dismantled by civilians whose later sold the metal or used it to make pots, pans as well as roofs for henhouses or the like ...

On this point I don't agree. If I need to use a lever to unhinge the door (even if I think it was easily removable with a simple screwdriver) I would have inserted it in one of the many other smaller holes as this would allow me to apply more power.
I think, instead, that those three mechanics had been sent just to remove from the wreckage those parts still usable or of special interest and to do this they could have removed the panel.

[veltro]

Which door? In that area there were no doors, only a couple of small round (or oval in case of the upper one) fuselage hatches, whereas the area removed is not a panel, but a whole section of the fuselage...

Also, I think we should not apply too much of hindsight logic in case of abandoned, looted or rotten aircraft, because these were subject to the most various experiences, from "souvenir hunters" to metal scrappers, to simply vandalic issues done both by civilian and military alike (take a look at a video on-line showing US troops brutalizing the poor remains of a Bf 109 with hammers, hatchets, and even a baseball bat!).

Such planes, which today for us are precious remains of historical importance, at the time were simply pieces of metal emblazoned with enemy insignia, often a perfect target to let off some steam for people who until a few days or weeks before had risked their lives or lost friends fighting against them or had suffered under them.

In the best cases, those items were simply seen as a way to find some useful or profitable use and as a sort of compensation for the damages (either moral or material, or both) sustained.

IMHO, of course.

[Freddy]

Ferdinando you're right about everything but unfortunately we all were wrong in "glimpsing" on the picture something that does not really exist. What seemed to me a panel and to you a section of the fuselage is in fact only the cockpit overturned on the wing as can be clearly seen in the other photo. Probably both pictures had been taken on the same occasion.
I thought it was a panel because it seemed that the edges were too defined than those of a ripped sheet but as you see the reality is different and I'm sorry I have stirred up all this "hornet's nest".
Among other things I also said another nonsense about the flaps that actually are in the retracted position while the radiator flaps are open and this made me misled.
Sometimes, before starting to write in one go it would be better for me to lose a little more time in observing better and in thinking more.
I cannot understand if it's just because old age or simple stupidity.
Sorry.

[veltro]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Ferdinando you're right about everything but unfortunately we all were wrong in "glimpsing" on the picture something that does not really exist. What seemed to me a panel and to you a section of the fuselage is in fact only the cockpit overturned on the wing as can be clearly seen in the other photo. Probably both pictures had been taken on the same occasion.

I agree. Sometimes we watch but we don't see... until someone points out the evidence.

So, same circumstance and at least two shots taken... still would love to know where with some certainty.

[veltro]

Small addendum... Although very late (I know), and to give due credit to Steefan Bouwer, who started this thread, I've managed to download the whole Operational Diaries of 1 Sqn. SAAF (courtesy of UK National Archives) and ascertained that the unit since April 18, 1945 was based in Tissano (alias Risano as landing ground).

So Goulding, who at the time was CO of the unit, was stationed very near to Campoformido and within the area of that airfield's wide web of dispersal areas.

This leaves no doubt about him having the means and the opportunity to take there the two shots of "77022x". Which, IMHO, leaves no doubts about the fact that who redacted the A.I.2(g) report simply missed to write the Werke Nummer of the aircraft when dealing with the "unidentified" five Bf 109Gs found...

Or, at least, this is the best explaination I have managed to come up with.

Thanks for the patience.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Great to read this, Ferdinando...
So we have a real option for Campoformido... But the landscape is a bit adverse: no river embankment to be seen near - or far - of Campoformido airfield. Maniago, near the river Tagliamento next to the dispersal area is, according Freddy who lives there, the only airfield next to a river embankment as seen in the rear view of W.Nr. 770 22x. Could it be possible that planes were ovelooked by the F.I.U Reports or is it too far fetched a hypothesis?

Cheers
Marc

[veltro]

Marc,

I respect all opinions and don't want to enter in a discussion about that, but IMHO an "embankment" as such not necessarily means a river, there being the possibility that it was something else, maybe even leveled after the war.

After all, we are seeing it from one angle only and it is very difficult to exclude also that it could have been something else (at least, one thing that I am still learning is that there are very little certainties in general. Let alone when dealing with such things...).

But - as often happens - I may be wrong. I prefer to concentrate on what we know, and we are starting to know much more now than we did, even on this photograph.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

A prudent and methodical approach I can fully endorse, Ferdinando. I will modify the caption accordingly.

Cheers
Marc

[Freddy]

Unwittingly, sometimes, in the hurry to answer or to formulate a hypothesis about the problem under discussion, it happens to "play by ear" as meaning that one do not take some more time to check all the available sources. Then, when the amount of documents, collected over the years, begins to become very consistent, you are likely to forget some of these sources, either because it's been a long time since the last time you consulted them, either also because the brain and memory are not those of the past. At least that's what happens to me.
After having read the reference made by Ferdinando to 1 Squadron SAAF, I remembered to have somewhere that O.R.B. along with some others too.
However, I reviewed all the reports searching, from April to July 1945, something interesting and helpful for our problem. Assuming that part of the staff of the following units, 1, 2, 5 and 12 SQD SAAF (I miss just that of 3 SQD), 3 sqd RAAF, 43, 112, 250, 260 and 450 RAF, was present on the Campoformido airfield in the days before May 28, 1945 to participate in the "Fly Past" demonstration, I tried to find, in their reports, some mention of enemy aircraft found abandoned on that airport. I found lots of interesting information but none about that subject.
What has emerged, however, is that the various units used the name Tissano to indicate both the airfield of Lavariano South and the concrete runaway of Risano and often, in their reports, used both names interchangeably. Just about this point it is interesting a note ,on pages 259 and 260 of 250 Sqd RAF O.R.B, that states: "Weather improved, but still unfit for flying Five aircraft were ferried from Lavariano L.G. to Tissano L.G. The remainder of the aircraft were taxied across. The new strip, being concrete, is more favourable for winter flying. It lies adjacent to the Lavariano grass-strip and is connected by taxi tracks." " on the 22nd January, the Lavariano grass strip was vacated, and the nearby concrete strip at Tissano was brought into use for the Wings and Squadrons. The move was carried out smoothly."

With regard to the issue of where the photo was taken, I decided to seek information from Roberto Bassi, who is the author of the two books: "Il cielo di Campoformido", Part I and Part II. Bassi is very familiar with the airport because he was born and has always lived in Campoformido but also because he has served there, for some years, as a helicopter pilot with the 5th Reg "Rigel".

This is what he says: ... Maniago is to be excluded... there is no mountain in the background and the mountanis are very close to that place (the pictures show the same plane taken from two different angles so at least in one of them some mountains had to be visible).
It should be Campoformido, what you see in the picture is definitely not a bank but one of the many splinterguard walls built by the Todt (as a child I used to play there and there were a lot of those walls). These defenses were placed south of the road leading from Campoformido to Basaldella and reached a height of about 4-5 meters. ...

At this point, in my opinion, we have the almost certainty that the picture was taken in Campoformido in the days after May 16, 1945, the date on which 3 Squadron SAAF was transferred to this airport. Although, in fact, I have not the O.R.B. of his unit, however, I found, on
http://www.historyofwar.org/air/units/SAAF/3_wwII.html that in May 1945 the Squadron moved from Villafranca directly to Campoformido where he remained until September of the same year.
Now, the last thing left to do is to find out the Werknummer of that aircraft, but I think this could be a very difficult task to accomplish.

This is the list of the reports at my disposal. If someone is interested in them I can provide a copy.

1 Sqd. SAAF AIR 27/10-11-12-13 War Diary from January 1943 to July 1945
2 Sqd. SAAF AIR 27/23-24-25 O.R.B. from January 1944 to July 1945
5 Sqd. SAAF AIR 27/67-68-69 O.R.B. from January 1942 to October 1945
5 Sqd. SAAF AIR 27/72 Appendices from January 1943 to April 1944
12 Sqd. SAAF AIR 17/172-173-174 O.R.B. from May 1941 to October 1945
12 Sqd. SAAF AIR 17/179 Appendices from July 1943 to April 1944
3 Sqd. RAAF AIR 27/40-41 O.R.B. from September 1940 to December 1943
3 Sqd. RAAF AIR 27/43-44 Appendices from January 1941 to July 1945
450 Sqd. RAAF AIR 27/1885-1886 O.R.B. from January 1943 to August 1945
450 Sqd. RAAF AIR 27/1888-1889 Appendices from January 1943 to July 1944
43 Sqd. RAF AIR 27/444 -445-446 O.R.B. from January 1943 to May 1947
112 Sqd. RAF AIR 27/873-874 O.R.B. from January 1941 to May 1945
225 Sqd. RAF AIR 27/1936 O.R.B. from January 1943 to December 1943
250 Sqd. RAF AIR 27/1501-1502 O.R.B. from April 1941 to December 1946
250 Sqd. RAF AIR 27/1504-1505 Appendices from May 1941 to March 1943
260 Sqd. RAF AIR 27/1501-1502 O.R.B. from November 1940 to August 1945

[veltro]

Thanks, Freddy.

The knowledge of my friend Roberto on Campoformido and its sorroundings is such that his opinion is quite the last word for me and I'm glad that his collocation of that "bank" is quite coherent with my doubts.

Thanks also for your availability on the various RAF and SAAF units documents and ORBs. While we are at it, I'm pleased to seize this opportunity to inform in a more detailed and useful way all those reading this, that the UK National Archives have just released in free downloadable form all the units diaries and ORBs of the SAAF units in WW2.

These can be found among the material made available free of charge here: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/d...-microfilm.asp, then going at "What's available" and selecting AIR 54.

The amount of material is mind boggling and I personally have downloaded 11Gb worth of PDF documents during last week-end...!

Hope this can be of some help.