Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 19th January 2020, 17:21
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
Jakob Augustin 7/JG2

Hello

Herewith my research concerning the veracity of his "abschusse"

According to sources,credited with 15 "abschusse" (J.Prien) or 16 (Johannes)

(-):11/05/41=Spit 20.41 "Portland"...not approved (source Prien)

(-):10/07/41=Spit 20.35 ...unfounded claim

(-):19/08/41=Spit 19.42 "20 km N.O.Calais...not approved (source Prien)

(1):31/08/41=Spit 14.34 "2 km N.E Merville...founded (54°Sqd.W3712)

(-):16/09/41=Spit 16.20...unfounded claim

(2):27/09/41=Spit 15.55...founded (impossible to identify)

(-):02/10/41=Spit 18.42 "Pas De Calais"...unfounded claim

According J.Prien

(-):12/10/41=Spit 13.31 "Boulogne/Hardelot"...shared? with Seiffert? or Priller? (602°Sqd W3623 or 452°Sqd W3520)

(-):12/10/41=Spit 13.32...unfounded claim

According Johannes

(-):12/10/41=Spit 13.31 "Boulogne/Hardelot"...idem over

(-):18/10/41=Spit ...strange,no missions by RAF that day,and no losses.

(-):18/10/41=Spit...same remarks as above.

the two sources

(-):03/06/42=Spit 15.34 "Cherbourg"...unfounded claim ?

(-):04/06/42=Spit 12.55 "Cap Levy"...same remark as above.

(-):06/06/42=Spit 17.27 "Cherbourg"...unfounded claim

(-):11/06/42=Spit 14.27 "N.Cherbourg"...unfounded claim? (unknown losse)

(-):11/06/42=Spit 14.31 "N.Cherbourg"... as above

(-):17/06/42=Spit 11.00 "Barfleur"...as above

Results:two "abschusse",maybe 3/4 maximum,but we are far from 15/16!
A guy in the same line as Hahn,Schnell,Buhlingen or Wurmheller!!

But maybe I'am wrong.
Michel
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 21st January 2020, 06:56
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,353
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Jakob Augustin 7/JG2

Hi Michel

Before your thread I had looked at and reworked my Augustin biography. Thirteen of his fifteen claims come from the earlier typed-out mikrofilms of 7./JG2 and 8./JG2(which do not have crash-sites or altitude), the other two from the mikrofilms A.S.M list.

With the list below the first six were with 8./JG2, the last nine with 7./JG2, all Spitfires excepte the fifth(16th September 1941) which was a Hurricane:-

11th May 1941 2041 hrs Nr.1
10th July 1941 2035 hrs Nr.2
19th August 1941 1942 hrs 5000 metres altitude 20km NE Calais Nr.3
31st August 1941 1430 hrs 6400 metres NNW Lille Nr.4
16th September 1941 1620 hrs Nr.5
27th September 1941 1555 hrs Nr.6
2nd October 1941 1843 hrs Nr.7
12th October 1941 1331 hrs Nr.8
12th October 1941 1332 hrs Nr.9
3rd June 1942 1534 hrs Nr.10
4th June 1942 1255 hrs Nr.11
6th June 1942 1727 hrs Nr.12
11th June 1942 1427 hrs Nr.13
11th June 1942 1431 hrs Nr.14
17th June 1942 1100 hrs Nr.15

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 23rd January 2020, 15:09
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
Re: Jakob Augustin 7/JG2

Ok Johannes,I take not of the lack of claims on 18/10/41 and "only" 15 "abschusse" and not "16" (for the "official version",wich is not at all the reality!)

Best Regards
michel
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24th January 2020, 11:25
Johannes Johannes is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,353
Johannes has a spectacular aura aboutJohannes has a spectacular aura about
Re: Jakob Augustin 7/JG2

Hi Michel

I assume by "reality" you mean not those confirmed, but those that in reality he actually shot down ?
Personally I don't know if he "overclaimed" or not, but JG2 itself was heavily overclaiming, I can only imagine that they got away with it because they claimed their enemy fell into the sea...….thus precluding a wreck-site report.

Even though JG2 was the worst big Geschwader for overclaiming in the West, not all pilots or even staffels so inclined.

Kind Regards

Johannes
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24th January 2020, 13:24
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 894
Nick Hector will become famous soon enoughNick Hector will become famous soon enough
Re: Jakob Augustin 7/JG2

Here's what I can determine of his opponents. Happy as always to receive corrections and additions...

Jakob Augustin

11.5.41/2040
Spitfire (actually a Hurricane II?)
Portland
Day's only known loss and acknowledged as a victim of JG 2 was Hurricane II V7175 of 504 sqn. F/L B E G White WIA

10.7.41/2035
Spitfire
Channel Front

19.8.41/1942
Spitfire IIA
20km NE of Calais @ 5000m
111 sqn. 4 losses: P7824 of P/O J A Timmis and Sgt. J B Villandre (both POW), P8428 of P/O George Alexander Skelly, KIA and P7324 of Sgt. D J Connelly WIA and damaged
(other claims by JG 26)

31.8.41/1430
Spitfire VB
2km NE of Merville @ 6400m
W3712 of 54 sqn. F/L Roy Mottram KIA

16.9.41/1620
Hurricane II
Could this have been claimed against 257 sqn off the Dutch coast? (Definitely no loss, but in the air at that time)

27.9.41/1555
Spitfire
An acknowledged JG 2 victim was W3655 "Silver Grey" of 616 "South Yorkshire" sqn. Sgt J G West DFM RNZAF damaged by Fw190 and baled out near Bexhill

2.10.41/1545
Spitfire
Pas de Calais
92 sqn. Includes W3459 of F/L J W Lund, W3137 of Sgt N H Edge and W3762 of Sgt K G Port all KIA, P/O D A Bruce injured in W3657 (crashlanded near Ashford)

12.10.41/1331 and 1332
2 x Spitfires
Boulogne-Hardelot
452 and 602 "city of Glasgow" sqns. Overclaiming, only two losses: 452 lost W3520 of Sgt. Keith Brace Chisholm DFM, 602 lost W3623 of Sgt. A E V Meredith. Both men POW
(Seifert and Priller also claimed)

3.6.42/1534
Spitfire VB
into sea off Cherbourg
Massive overclaiming. Losses to JG 2 include 312 sqn: BL626, F/O Ivo P Tonder and BL340 of F/L Bedrich "Freddy" Dvorak. Both POW. Dvorak and Tonder were Great Escapers

6.6.42/1727
Spitfire
Cherbourg-Cap Levy (Ramrod 21 to Theville)
Overclaiming. Only losses were: Mk VB BL984, S/L John Champion Carver DFC and EN975, Sgt. Lloyd Henry Jones RCAF. Both from 118 sqn and both KIA. 175 sqn had Hurricane IIE BE502 of Sgt. Rosser damaged

11.6.42/1427 and 1431
2 x Spitfire VB
Into sea N of Cherbourg
Day's only traceable loss was BM350 of 402 sqn, RCAF. Sgt. J R Harmer, damaged. Pilot safe. These may have been from 340 sqn, which suffered no losses (overclaiming)

17.6.42/1100
Spitfire
Into sea NE of Barfleur
Claimed against 118 sqn. Overclaiming, no actual losses.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24th January 2020, 16:24
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,055
focusfocus is on a distinguished road
Re: Jakob Augustin 7/JG2

Hi Johannes

I mean by reality,THOSE he really shot down and wich correspond to allied losses.
Only two are in this case(31/08/41 and 27/09/41)
Two others can discuss (12/10/41 and 04/06/42),..and that's it:everything else is very random assumptions.

ex:06/06/42
two losses (118°sqd) against 13 claims by III/JG2 (Hahn,Schnell,Mayer....)..and he would have shot down one? maybe? "THE CHANCE" exists but it's really minimal!...so.

Best Regards
Michel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
About Oblt. Jakob Schaus of NJG4 / May 1944 canonne Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 11th March 2018 21:41
Jakob Löffler Info over his lost . nikkel Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 20th August 2012 18:58
Information concerning loss of Uffz. Jakob Jenal - 13.02.1944 rickback4444 Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 18th August 2012 10:08
Aces Oblt. Stoll & Oblt. Buhl, both KiA in BoB Nefiakoff Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 4 6th October 2010 04:52
Unteroffizier Jakob Vogel neil c Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 11th October 2008 12:39


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 17:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net