FAA pilot details sought

[alex crawford]

Hi,

Does anyone know the names of the FAA pilots involved in ferrying 263 Squadrons Gladiators onboard HMS Glorious on 21st and 22nd April 1940? Were they from 802 or 804 Squadrons or both? Lastly does anyone know the name of the FAA pilot who crashed into the sea short of the carrier on 21st?

Thanks,

Alex

[Leendert]

Alex,

Naval-history.net has a Skua of 803 Squadron that crashed while attempting to land on HMS Glorious, but then on 22 April 1940. Lt A.S. Griffith was picked up by a destroyer, Naval Airman K.A. Brown was killed.

Other day as in your question, so don't know for sure if you meant this incident.

Regards,

Leendert

[Ex Shack]

Hi Alex
I think this has cropped up on rafcommands, but for what it is worth, in Shores et al,"Fledgling Eagles" it reports that on 21/4/40 the 263 Sqn's A/C were flown aboard the Glorious by Sea Gladiator pilots of 802 and 804 Sqns.N5624 suffered engine failure as it approached the ship and fell into the sea,however, it then says that Plt.Off C D Gordon-Wilson's dead body was recovered. It puts the rank as I have put it and not P/O which might have been interpreted as Petty Officer. It doesn't say whether Gordon-Wilson was an RAF member of an FAA Sqn, which was just possible as there were still many RAF personnel in the FAA up to at least Nov 1940, an e-mail I had from the RAF Museum suggests as many as 2000 at that time, and there were 19 RAF Casualties when the Glorious was sunk on the FAA Sqns on board,mostly in servicing, and additional to 41 other RAF personnel who were evacuees, eg the pilots of 263 and 46 Sqns.
http://www.glarac.com/ gives some details.
Regards
Dick

[alex crawford]

Hi,

Thanks for your replies.

My research indicates that when Plt Off Cornelius Desmond Gordon-Wilson was lost on 21st April but he was not flying a 263 Sqn Gladiator. On 26th March he was posted from 263 Sqn to 3 Area Base, Uxbridge. He was then posted to 145 Sqn in April. On 21st he was flying Hurricane N5200 when he was killed.

The 263 Sqn ORB states that on 21st April one of the Gladiators crashed into the sea short of the carrier. The FAA pilot was rescued uninjured. All available sources agree that FAA pilots ferried the Gladiators onboard HMS Glorious and not RAF pilots.

The confusion with this may lie in the fact that the CWGC has him as serving with 263 Sqn at the time of his death.

Regards,

Alex

[niallc]

Alex

I quite agree with you re Cornelius Gordon Wilson (In fact I think it might have been I who pointed this out to you on RAF Commands:-))
I also have not yet managed to find the identity of the FAA pilot involved, but I think 802 Sqn is far more likely than 804. There are two other issues with the account given in Fledgling Eagles (and repeated elsewhere). The lost Gladiator is given as N5624, but the F1180 for the incident gives the serial as N5695 and Peter Wyatt-Smith's logbook also indicates N5695 (it was 'his' aircraft). Additionally N5624 is cited as being involved in a combat some days later. Infuriatingly the F1180 gives neither the pilot's name nor the cause of the ditching.

Secondly in Fledgling Eagles - and many other accounts - the location of this incident is incorrectly given as Scapa Flow. Glorious was in the Clyde, not at Scapa, on the 21st and didn't sail for Scapa to join Ark and her escorts until that night. This is why 263s Gladiators were ferried on the 20th to Prestwick rather than, say, Hatston.

HTH
Niall

[alex crawford]

Hi Niall,

Thanks for your reply. Yes, it probably was you who pointed out the fate of Gordon-Wilson to me. I'm grateful for all your help regarding my research into 263 Sqn.

I've just recently recieved a copy of the report given by Sqn Ldr Donaldson on the movement of the Air Party from 20th April to 1st May 1940.

Some of the confusion about Glorious embarking the Gladiators from Prestwick/Scapa may come from these extracts.

20th April
At 1400hrs eighteen aircraft left Filton for Sealand. 1500hrs eighteen aircraft arrived at Sealand.
1700hrs eighteen aircraft left Sealand for Prestiwck. 1945hrs fifteen aircraft arrived Prestwick.
Three Gladiators were unable to proceed past Blackpool owing to very bad visibility conditions and therefore returned to Sealand.

21st April
0030hrs fifteen pilots embarked on HMS Glorious. 1400hrs fourteen Gladiator aircraft landed on HMS Glorious.
One Gladiator was landed in the sea some 200 yards astern of HMS Glorious. Fleet Air Arm pilot uninjured, aircraft total loss.

22nd April
Four Gladiators were flown on to HMS Glorious. Three pilots of 263 Squadron were embarked by launch from Scapa Flow.

263 Squadron at 1530hrs complete to strength as required by Air Ministry. Eighteen Gladiators and eighteen pilots.


Obviously the four Gladiators that were flown onboard the carrier on 22nd were the three that had to turn back on 20th and the replacement for the one that crashed into the sea.

One question I have is that could HMS Glorious have sailed from the Clyde during the mid afternoon of the 21st and have arrived at Scapa Flow on 22nd?

Also you mentioned that N5695 was Wyatt-Smiths 'own' aircraft. Were all pilots ollocated their 'own' aircraft? And if so do you know what they were?


What I ahve noticed with 263 Squadron, and most of the other research I've done, is that answering one question leads to several more being asked.

Regards,

Alex

[niallc]

Alex

I meant that the aircraft was Wyatt-Smith's in the sense that he'd flown this particular Gladiator on the ferry flight up to Prestwick. If it had been one of the other aircraft that was later ditched I doubt that he'd even have mentioned the event.

I'd guess its probably around 400 miles from the outer reaches of the Clyde to Scapa (depending on route taken) and from memory I don't think Glorious actually anchored in Scapa until the evening of the 22nd (around 7pm I think) so there was more than enough time to cover the distance. Most of the (many) aircraft flown on to her were flown on while she was still at sea in the mid afternoon.

HTH
Niall