Free French Jean Demozay claims ??

[focusfocus]

Hello All

In my reseach on Paul Galland,I reread the (interesting) biography of Jean Demozay by Manny Souffran (french magazine "avions" n°176),he may have shot down Paul Galland....with others!

Number 2 in the list of French "Aces" (19 vict.sures),and SURPRISE (bad!),by consulting the list of losses of the JG2,JG26,Erg/Jagdgeschwader,(Ein.)/Jagdfliegerschule,it's ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO MATCH a victory with a possible loss....even damaged!


The majority of his "victories" claimed during missions "Jim Crow" (alone,without a witness,....over the English Channel)

Amazing and very disturbing.

Attached list:

08/11/40=1 Ju-88 15h40 (a)
24/03/41=1 Bf.109 15h00 S.Hasting (b)
10-11/05/41=1 He-111 23h55 E.London (c)
25/05/41=1 Bf.110 16h30 S.Foreland.....no losse
22/06/41=1 Bf.109 16h30 Channel....unfonded,no losse in Channel
23/06/41=1 Bf.109 20h10 Desvres (d)
26/07/41=1 Bf0109 12h00 Calais....mission Jim Crow,no losse
31/07/41=2 Bf.109 17h30 Dunkerque....mission Jim Crow,no losses
09/08/41=1 Bf.109 13h40 N.Calais....mission Jim Crow,no losse
29/08/41=1 Bf.109 14h10 Calais-Griz-Nez....mission Jim Crow,no losse
13/09/41=1 Bf.109 16h20 Calais-Blanc-Nez...mission Jim Crow...no losse
16/09/41=1 Bf.109 11h30 West Calais....mission Jim Crow,no losse
09/10/41=1 Bf.109 10h00 Calais-Offenquerque....mission Jim Crow,no losse
12/11/41=1 Bf.109 Nord Gris-Nez,no losse
02/01/42=1 Bf.109 Off Boulogne,no losse
23/09/42=1 Fw.190 10mile N.W Griz-Nez,no FW.190 lost
31/10/42=2 Fw.190 Off Calais (e)

(a)=claim damaged when flying alone on a training sortie,confirm 2 months later as III/KG1(very doutfull)
(b)= prob.II/JG53
(c)=prob.shared I/KG28
(d)=14 claims for Fighter Command for 3 Bf.109 lost....possible,but not sure.
(e)=only 1 Fw.190 (Paul Gallland),prob.shared (1/4)

Amazing.
I have several questions:
1)"Storyteller"
2)Fraudulent claims? claims often alone
3)Others reasons that escapes me?

An Idea
michel

[Many Souffan]

Bonjour Focusfocus (Michel)

I don't know who you are, you hide behind a pseudo, and The only thing I know about you, "maybe" you are French as myself.

I am Many Souffan and it is curious for me that you have written my name badly "Manny Souffran"

When I write it's always under my name, you can see my portrait, and I always I sign what I write with full infos (my address).

When I begin to have an interest about pilots of WWII, I swore to myself to go to the source of information and not to resume what has already been written. I learned to be careful and to write at conditional if I am not sure.

History is an exact science based on documents, but it can progress through the discovery of a new document.

A combat report is an official document. Without putting a doubt on the honesty of any pilot, the document is a tangible fact but may sometimes not reflect the truth for many reasons

The way you write seems a little hasty with a lack of conditional.

Please, since I write article (25 years) If I speak about a fact, it's always because I have a document, a primary document.

And about Jean Demozay, I am the first to have the honour to see all its documents included his Log Book.

Please, when you advance an idea do not be affirmative, especially if you have no proof.

As you have written:
(a)=claim damaged when flying alone on a training sortie,confirm 2 months later as III/KG1(very doutfull)
On the LB of Jean Demozay, on the opposite page of 8th november 1940, It is written and signed by his S/L himself Mark "Hilly" Brown: "confirmed two months later".

(b)= prob.II/JG53
maybe, maybe not, I am not so sûre like you...

(c)=prob.shared I/KG28
It was during a Fighter Night, his combat report is very precise. His Squadron (1Sqn) on higher position, the 242 Sqn (with 3 French pilots) flew in a medium position, but never with 1Sqn. Some historians saidor thought this victory was shared with another French pilot (de Scitivaux or Fayolle) it's not true. Even we have the possibility the German Bomber was attacked by other Hurricane but not at the same altitude.

(d)=14 claims for Fighter Command for 3 Bf.109 lost....possible,but not sure.
Demozay was with 242 Sqn with de Labouchère, de Scitivaux, Fayolle and Dupérier. The latter did not flew the mission, but he reported the next day in his private diary the words of Labouchère who was impressed by the shot of Demozay which split in two the Bf 109 behind the cockpit.

(e)=only 1 Fw.190 (Paul Gallland),prob.shared (1/4)
In the papers of Jean Demozay, there are the general report of the day and the combat reports of the six pilots of 91 Sqn. And it's clear for me that Demozay(followed by his wigman) was alone to shot down Paul Galland, the latter was without rottenflieger, curiously close enough over the sea... It could be shot also by Maridor, but I am not convinced.

If you wait a little you will read again an article in my magzine AceS about Jean Demozay and the next year a book with all its documents.

Merci. Have a nice day.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Monsieur Souffan,

Firstly, congratulations for your answer and general talk about History being based on documents. For "sprog" writers like me, who is still and Always learning, it only enhances my wish to do better, to inspire myself on the Works of writers and researchers like you and some of those others who are members here: Goss, Beale, Chris Shores, Dr. Prien and several several others (USAF and American writers, French Writers, Russian experts like Dimitry and others, etc...).

Secondly: WE (moi qui ai vécu en France pendant 4 ans) will wait anxiously this biography of Demozay with (hope so!) his RAF Logbooks scanned and new data. He is certainly a MAN to be remembered and I do have an old French Magazine about his last flight, on that French Trainer plane that claimed his life! A real sad loss...I only can imagine how he could have contributed to make a better world and better French Air Force in the 50's-60's. He was the kind of MAN (like our Brazilian Cosme Lockwood Gomm, DSO, DFC buried in France) that France could not afford to loose. Congratulations for what seems to have been a deep research onto the life of that French Ace (not forgotten).

Most humbly yours,
Adriano Silva Baumgartner, ASV 00.344
Biographer of Captain Gordon Fox Rule, DFC, CdG*
Researcher of Brazilians in RAF (WW1 and WW2 period)

[focusfocus]

Bonjour MR.SOUFFAN

FIRST OF ALL,my APOLOGIES for misspelled name,I am INFORGIVABLE,(especially since J know you:"REPLIC and Kit'Doc Clichy;it does not rejuvenates us!)

Actually,I have a nickname,.....and?it's serious?

Ok,you've been well documented about Jean Demosay's claims,but how do you explain the absence of corresponding losses on the german side (many,too much?)...is not it troubling?.....for now,I'm just wondering,I'm careful not to make hasty conclusions (too much),and I am very happy if you show the correspondence between claims and losses...for now it looks bad.

If a document is a tangible fact (right) but not reflect the TRUTH:we deal with it? and that's all? it's not really my position.

a)You imply III/KG1
I have me: Ju-88 A5 (2186) crashed at RAF honington Suffolk shot down by Lewis Gunners

Ju-88 A5 (2214) force-landed at Schiphol with AA DAMAGE

Have you others losses not known? of me
You are really sure that his"victim" is III/KG1, no doubt?well,ok

d) 242°Sqd: De La Bouchere 1 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30
Demozay 1 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30

92°Sqdougall 1 Bf.109 Hardelot 20h30

303°Sqd:Adamek 2 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30
Gladych 3 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30
Wojciechwski 1 Bf.109 20h30
Wunsche 1 Bf.109
Strembosz 1 Bf.109


611°Sqd:Buys 1Bf.109 Hardelot 20h30

BH Wing:Malan 2 Bf.109 20h25

total 14 victories for only 3 Bf.109 lost
According document (RAF) who is a "tangible fact".... but not the truth(no importance?)..so 14 reals victories and especially do not question the facts....AH!well

e) 6 Fw.190 claimed for only one real (Paul Galland),it's a document tangible (RAF).....don't question yourself and accept the facts? for 76 years.AH!well


Again MY APOLOGIES FOR YOUR NAME

Best Regards

Michel (Colombes)

[Many Souffan]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

Monsieur Souffan,

Firstly, congratulations for your answer and general talk about History being based on documents. For "sprog" writers like me, who is still and Always learning, it only enhances my wish to do better, to inspire myself on the Works of writers and researchers like you and some of those others who are members here: Goss, Beale, Chris Shores, Dr. Prien and several several others (USAF and American writers, French Writers, Russian experts like Dimitry and others, etc...).

Secondly: WE (moi qui ai vécu en France pendant 4 ans) will wait anxiously this biography of Demozay with (hope so!) his RAF Logbooks scanned and new data. He is certainly a MAN to be remembered and I do have an old French Magazine about his last flight, on that French Trainer plane that claimed his life! A real sad loss...I only can imagine how he could have contributed to make a better world and better French Air Force in the 50's-60's. He was the kind of MAN (like our Brazilian Cosme Lockwood Gomm, DSO, DFC buried in France) that France could not afford to loose. Congratulations for what seems to have been a deep research onto the life of that French Ace (not forgotten).

Most humbly yours,
Adriano Silva Baumgartner, ASV 00.344
Biographer of Captain Gordon Fox Rule, DFC, CdG*
Researcher of Brazilians in RAF (WW1 and WW2 period)

Ola Adriano
(O Brasil é querido pela minha alma)

Firstly Thank you for the beautiful compliment to associate me with these great names of History of Military Aviation of WWII.
I try my best to be a serious and passionate researcher, the good thing is always done with the heart.
it's always a long lonely road to become a serious researcher.

As Pierre Clostermann said himself, Jean Demozay is sûrely the greatest French Fighter during WWII not only for his victories, but also by what he did before and after he finished to fly as Fighter, one word; it's incredible.
I will put all documents I can put in this biography, naturally his Log Book and other documents like a document from its conference about the role of the Fighter bomber in the Air War. He is the father of the modern Fighter bomber. And naturally his writings about his vision of the new Armée de l'Air and of the new role of the pilot. If, unfortunately, he has not lived long enough to see his project, he is certainly the father, here too, of the new Armée de l'Air of today.

Thank you you again for your kind words.

[knusel]

Good morning Gentlemen,

the SHAA attributes 21 confirmed kills to Mr. Demozay.
In his cieldegloire biography
http://www.cieldegloire.fr/004_demozay_j.php
which is based on ACES HIGH only 18 are listed.
The three kills that make the difference are Bf109's on 17Jul41, 25Jul41 and 25Nov41.
https://frenchaces.pagesperso-orange.fr/m+as.html

Have a good Friday,

Michael

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by focusfocus

Ok,you've been well documented about Jean Demosay's claims,but how do you explain the absence of corresponding losses on the german side (many,too much?)...is not it troubling?.....for now,I'm just wondering,I'm careful not to make hasty conclusions (too much),and I am very happy if you show the correspondence between claims and losses...for now it looks bad.

There are several victories that do not match known losses and are hard to explain. This does not mean that they were frauds or fictious. Some were shared by several pilots, some were damaged aircraft, some were friendly fire incidents.

The general problem is lack of German documents. There is nothing like war diaries, after action reports, combat reports, loss reports. It is not possible to tell which German units were engaged and to what effect.

The one must be aware that the RAF observed combats on radar and radio. Unfortunately, radar plots are not available to my knowledge, presumably destroyed as of no historical value. Only summaries of radio intercepts are available. Nonetheless they were used at the time for verification of victories, such cases are documented.

d) 242°Sqd: De La Bouchere 1 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30
Demozay 1 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30

92°Sqdougall 1 Bf.109 Hardelot 20h30

303°Sqd:Adamek 2 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30
Gladych 3 Bf.109 Desvres 20h30
Wojciechwski 1 Bf.109 20h30
Wunsche 1 Bf.109
Strembosz 1 Bf.109


611°Sqd:Buys 1Bf.109 Hardelot 20h30

BH Wing:Malan 2 Bf.109 20h25

total 14 victories for only 3 Bf.109 lost
According document (RAF) who is a "tangible fact".... but not the truth(no importance?)..so 14 reals victories and especially do not question the facts....AH!well

JG 2 lost at least 6 aircraft in the combat. Nothing else is known from the German side.

e) 6 Fw.190 claimed for only one real (Paul Galland),it's a document tangible (RAF).....don't question yourself and accept the facts? for 76 years.AH!well
(Colombes)

As long as you cannot identify the units engaged, you do not know the facts. So?

[knusel]

Good morning Gentlemen,

what about the claimed Bf109's on 17Jul41, 25Jul41 and 25Nov41 ?
Why were they accepted by the French but not by the British ?

Cheers,

Michael

[keith A]

I have studied another pilot from 91 Squadron who has faced the same questions, "Chris" Le Roux. This South African was well known for his tall tales but is no less interesting for that. Like his contemporary, Demozay very few of his claims are verifiable from LW records, and his score has been increased in several biographical sketches by the addition of aircraft destroyed on the ground. Curiously in one instance at the beginning of his career he only claims a "probable" but this is upgraded to "destroyed" by senior officers on very flimsy evidence. He receices his AOC congratulations for a leter double victory again on unsubstantial evidence. I have wondered if his later, almost certainly inflated. claims were influenced by this. For example his last victory on 31 July 1944 was for an Fw190 which he states flew into the ground while he was chasing it, without gun camera evidence (he had used up his ammo against MET). He is also credited with shooting down Ltn Paul Galland on 31 October 1942 day when both he and Demozay claimed double victories. Le Roux received congratulations from his AOC again!

[knusel]

Is it the one Mr Le Roux who shot up Rommel ?