Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10th August 2012, 13:05
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,892
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

Hello,

In the late Gunter Rosipal file of JG 54 losses, there are two entries for 10 August 1943:

Uffz Horst Eckert of 5./JG 54 was killed when his Fw 190 A-5 WNr 1294 crashed in an unknown place due to pilot error. The aircraft was shown as a 100% loss, and an additional comment is "Überführung", a term I am not sure to translate correctly as "overpass".

Uffz Norbert Pfeiffer survived unhurt a crash-landing after engine trouble near Ijmuiden, Netherlands, but his Bf 109 G-6/Y WNr 15656 was destroyed at 100%.

The Lutwaffe losses summary confirm that both III./JG 54 and 5./JG 54 lost an aicraft this day destroyed without enemy action on non-operational flight.

So far, so good, but then my other sources do not confirm the above:

1) for the first loss, I search a Horst Eckert and found one, a Uffz (same rank), born on 21/09/1919 (correct age for a pilot) and the place of death is shown as "Flugplatz Iwanowka", where several losses of I./JG 54 were reported the days before. So everything seems to confirm it is the same guy... but his death date is shown as 18 August 1943.

A quick check of the Luftwaffe losses summary and JG 54 loss file show no losses in both for JG 54.

So either the date in one source is wrong, or Eckert was fatally wounded and died 8 days later.

2) the Dutch Army site listing WWII crashsites in Netherlands in 1943 (http://www.defensie.nl/media/verlies...m46-154754.pdf) shows no crash on 10 August, but one on 11 August: the Bf 109 WNr 15656 of 7./JG 54 flown by Uffz A Pfeifer crashed ar Overveen.
Overveen is just south of Ijmuiden, the WNr is the same, the name of the pilot very close but again the date is different.

A quick check of the Luftwaffe losses summary shows that there is another loss of III./JG 54 on 11 August 1943, again one aircraft destroyed without enemy action on operational flight.
There is no loss for this day and III./JG 54 in Rosipal's file.

So either two aircraft of III./JG 54 crashed on two consecutive days, or one was reported on the two days.

So can anyone help me to solve these cases ?

Thanks in advance

Laurent
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10th August 2012, 13:30
lilsis lilsis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 264
lilsis is on a distinguished road
Re: JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

Hi,

A. Pfeifer - Pfeifer, Albert, Uffz. * 15.12.1919. + 11.08.1943 crash
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10th August 2012, 14:08
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,346
Brian Bines is on a distinguished road
Re: JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

Luft QMs returns dated 14-8-43 shows the crash landing of a Fw190 (25%) I/JG54 at Iwanowka on 6 or 8th Aug on a Feindflug. The Eckert loss is shown on 10-8-43 pilot killed on Heimat flight due to ''Absturz infolge Bediezungdfehler'' no location given. A post war JG54 loss list also shows his loss on 10-8-43 on a Uberfuhrung flight (transfer ?) aircraft shown as s 10 (black 10),

Regards

Brian Bines
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10th August 2012, 14:09
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Tampere, Finland
Posts: 3,145
Matti Salonen will become famous soon enough
Re: JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

According to NVM Rosipal has correct info on Horst Eckert loss.

According to NVM Pfeiffer was lost on 1943-08-11. For some reason GQM info gives 1943-08-10.

Matti
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10th August 2012, 16:09
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,892
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

Thanks for the quick replies, I didn't check if Pfeiffer was killed or not, but the Volksbund database as effectively an Albert Pfeifer (only one f) killed on 11 August 1943 and buried in Ysselsteyn (where almost all German war dead in Netherlands were reburied after the war).

By the way, in Rosipal file there are three losses for Pfeiffer-named pilots iMHO:

1) on 25 July 1943, Uffz Pfeiffe (sic) of 7./JG 54 bailed out wounded from his Bf 109 G-6 WNr 19818 in Castricum-Velsen (Nordseekanal) area after an air battle (presumably against 8th Air Force bombers)

2) the loss studied above reported in file on 10 August 1943 and occuring on the 11th according to a majority of source, NVM included. Also the pilot was named Uffz Norbert Pfeiffer and was unhurt according to the file, while in fact it was Uffz Albert Pfeifer and he was killed.

3) Uffz Norbert Pfeiffer of 10./JG 54 went missing on 3 November 1943 when his Bf 109 G-6 WNr 17013 was lost in an air battle in Oranienbaum area, west of Leningrad.

I guess that Rosipal confused Norbert Pfeiffer and Albert Pfeifer for the loss 2. For the loss 1, it is possible that Albert Pfeifer was the pilot involved (same Staffel and rank, close name) but then his wounds should have been very light to fly another sortie 16 days later. On the other hand, Albert Pfeifer was killed in a non-operational sortie, so may have returned to his unit after a short stay in hospital without having been declared operational again.

As for Eckert crashplace, I think it is strange that no location would be listed in the QM returns if the crash occured on an airfield. It is also possible that he went missing during a flight from Iwanowka airfield, that was the last known location for him, and so was reported on the document used by the Volksbund (NVM?), but actually crashed away from it.

By the way, I am interested in the precise location and Russian name ( ) of Iwanowka airfield used by JG 54 in summer 1943.

Sorry that each answer brings more questions...

Thanks in advance

Laurent
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10th August 2012, 16:13
Pawel Burchard Pawel Burchard is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 683
Pawel Burchard is on a distinguished road
Re: JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti View Post
By the way, I am interested in the precise location and Russian name ( ) of Iwanowka airfield used by JG 54 in summer 1943.
I believe this should be (based on Tagebuch of G. Schack from III./51) -
Iwanowka, northwest of Ordshonikidsegrad, northwest of Briansk (X-54 Rosslawl)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 5th September 2012, 19:56
Laurent Rizzotti Laurent Rizzotti is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 2,892
Laurent Rizzotti is on a distinguished road
Re: JG 54 losses on (or around) 10 August 1943

Pawel, a late thanks due to extended vacations (but still too short...).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Birth/Death details of non Ritterkreuz 50+ aces Johannes Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 54 9th July 2021 15:26
More qustions on four losses of IV./JG 54 in January 1944 Laurent Rizzotti Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 27th January 2012 20:46
10 April 1945, Burg bei Magdeburg : which Me 262s' unit was involved ? BABIN Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 5 5th January 2011 12:35
JG 301 and JG 302 losses on the night of 8/9th October 1943 - Hannover Adriano Baumgartner Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 7 3rd October 2010 02:39
How many JG 77 Losses in 1943? Bogdan Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 19th October 2008 22:32


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2023, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net