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  #11  
Old 20th May 2015, 17:44
Maxim1 Maxim1 is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
The German Summarische Verluste data (kindly transcribed by Andreas Brekken) shows only one Ju 87 downed by enemy fighters, and no German fighters or fighter-bombers damaged or lost. So to answer one question, no, there don't seem to have been any additional Luftwaffe losses.
According to Flugzeugbestand- und Bewegungsmeldungen in May 1944 JG 52 lost 78 planes totally destroyed and 20 heavily damaged (required extensive repair on a factory).

What Summarische Verlustmeldungen say about that figures?

Last edited by Maxim1; 21st May 2015 at 00:09.
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  #12  
Old 20th May 2015, 18:33
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

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Originally Posted by Maxim1 View Post
According to Flugzeugbestand- und Bewegungsmeldungen in May 1944 JG 52 lost 78 planes totally destroyed and 20 heavily damaged (required extensive repair on a factory).

What Summarische Verlustmeldungen says about that figures?
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen http://www.ww2.dk/air/jagd/jg52.htm

In May 1944:

I./JG52: 13 and 7 (enemy action/non enemy action), 15 in overhaul, 14.4.44 - 1.6.44 Mamaia, Leipzig/Rumania
II./JG52: 21 and 3, 1 in overhaul, 16.4.44 - 6.6.44 Zilistea
III./JG52: 15 and 14, 3 in overhaul, 10.4.44 - 27.6.44 Sevastopol-Chersonnes, Zarnesti, Roman

Count total losses as 73, not 78.
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  #13  
Old 20th May 2015, 22:11
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

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Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
you don't post any facts
any evidences rather jump the gun and rush to conclussions ... Suggest you also go through history books of the Luftwaffe , cheers .
And I suggest that you stop trying to be clever and start trying to be polite. If you react this way when people try to help you, why would anyone bother helping you in future?
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  #14  
Old 20th May 2015, 22:34
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Claims of IV./JG 54:

10., Uffz. Händel, Jak-9, 12.25, Koschmisga in 2.000 mtr (F)
11., Lt. von Ohlen, Jak-9, 14.02, Pl.Q. 98752 in 1.000 mtr (F)
10., Oblt. Haala, Jak-9, 18.08, Koschmisga in 4.500 mtr (F)
Stab, Hptm. Koall, Il-2, 19.35, Pl.Q. 98724 in 500 mtr (F)

Cheers,

John
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  #15  
Old 20th May 2015, 23:37
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Nick

I didn't try to be clever or set a point, nor at all was my intention to be
unpulite with some 1 now or the future, having said that if someone responds
my new thread " you have a mess " how is this form called ? Finally if some 1
makes claims, in my view is appropriate to post facts to back up the claims
to prove that the mess is not at his end instead just automatically disapprove
my post and later on not even post any of his claimed evidences which were
nothing but fictious. I therefore doubt any genuine help intentions at all.

Last edited by researcher111; 22nd May 2015 at 14:03.
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  #16  
Old 20th May 2015, 23:45
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Thanks John, mind telling me on which book or publication are these
figures available ? thanks in advance
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  #17  
Old 21st May 2015, 00:06
Maxim1 Maxim1 is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

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Originally Posted by Kutscha View Post
II./JG52: 21 and 3
II./JG52: 21 and 8, just clean up your display
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  #18  
Old 21st May 2015, 02:46
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

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Originally Posted by Maxim1 View Post
II./JG52: 21 and 8, just clean up your display
Thanks, will do.
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  #19  
Old 21st May 2015, 06:53
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Hi,

'Researcher111': the available German aerial victory claims were all transcribed from the microfilms by Tony Wood in the early 2000s, including those for the Eastern Front on 20 May 1944. Tony used to have a website where you could download all of them in Microsoft Word or .pdf format, but it seems to have disappeared. I was curious about your remark: "the JU-87 pilot KIA was with II./SG-2". II./S.G. 2 was, and always had been, an FW 190/Hs 123 unit, so I was wondering what your source is for the Ju 87 pilot being from II./S.G. 2? Regarding my mini-articule you can't access, my IV./J.G. 54 entry for 20 May 1944 reads:

"In 1944 the IV. Gruppe of JG 54 saw service almost everywhere, starting the year on the northern sector of the Eastern Front, then to the central and southern sectors, back to Germany, rushed to the Eastern Front in the wake of the Soviet summer offensive in late-June, and then back to the Western Front again in September 1944.

On 20 May 1944 IV./JG 54 was based alongside the Geschwaderstab and I./JG 52 at Leipzig, and flew combined missions with elements of JG 52 during the day. At least eight IV./JG 54 missions are known, beginning with a sweep at 06:15. The second IV./JG 54 operation was a sweep to Grigoriopol between 08:40 and 09:55, but despite combat with Il-2s and La-5s, no claims were submitted.

The unit was back to the day's hotspot soon after midday, and Uffz. Julius Händel of 10./JG 54 was able to claim the first aerial victory of his career, a Yak-9. A sweep flown from 13:30 to 14:45 resulted in contact with La-5s, LaGG-3s, and Yak-9s, and Lt. Karl von Ohlen from the 11. Staffel downed one of the latter. A few hours later, the Austrian Staffelkapitän of 10./JG 54, Oblt. Sigurd Haala, tangled with La-5s over the bridgehead at an altitude of 4,500 metres, and claimed one of his opponents shot down at 18:08. The final IV./JG 54 victory claim for the day, and indeed for I. Fliegerkorps, fell to the Kommandeur, Hptm. Gerhard Koall. The Il-2 was his 38th aerial victory of the war.

In total, the Gruppe reported four aerial victories and reported none of its Bf 109s lost or damaged.
"

Maksim: I was aware of the discrepencies between the SV-F and F & B, but thanks for mentioning it. I believe that they were two different reporting systems, with the F & B always sent on the final evening of the month (even in desperate situations like Tunisia in November 1942), making it more accurate than the individual loss reports, which were sent rather sporadically, sometimes weeks or months after the loss occurred. I feel you may have misinterpreted the Überholung column, which, to the best of my knowledge, usually doesn't indicate heavily damaged aircaft, but war-weary aircraft. In any case, here's a comparison between the reports for May 1944:

F & B – May 1944
Stab J.G. 52 – 0 & 0
I.//J.G. 52 – 13 & 7
II./J.G. 52 – 21 & 8
III./J.G. 52 – 15 & 14
15./J.G. 52 – 0 & 0
Total – 49 & 29 = 78

SV-F – May 1944
Stab J.G. 52 – 0 & 0 (matches)
I./J.G. 52 – 7 & 4 (6 & 3 missing)
II./J.G. 52 – 5 & 0 (16 & 8 missing)
III./J.G. 52 – 8 & 2 (7 & 12 missing)
15./J.G. 52 – 0 & 0 (matches)
Total – 20 & 6 (29 & 23 missing)

No great surprise that most of the 'missing' J.G. 52 losses come from the Crimean units, the II. and III. Gruppen. I believe that the loss reporting system for individual aircraft broke down during the final stages of the Crimean campaign (just as it did for Sch.G. 2 in the final stages of the Tunisian campaign a year earlier).

The example of II./J.G. 52 seems to support this theory, and in particular the dates on which loss reports were submitted for individual losses: a single II./J.G. 52 loss report was received by the Luftwaffe Quartermaster between 16 April and 23 May (on 8 May, covering a non-combat loss on 8 April 1944). There was then a real 'catch-up' in reports on 23 and 24 May: on those days the Gruppe submitted reports for 25 individual losses from the period 10 to 26 April. Obviously the unit would have suffered a lot of losses in the period 16 April-23 May which were not reported up the chain.

The situation is the same for III./J.G. 52, with no loss reports received by the Quartermaster between 7 April and 15 May, and then its post-Crimea catch-up day for reporting was 17 May 1944, with twelve reports submitted on that day covering the period 14-28 April.

Thus details on individual II. and III./J.G. 52 losses in the period 8 April-12 May 1944, and especially those without personnel injured or killed, have slipped through the cracks. The same can be said of II./S.G. 2.

Back to 20 May 1944, the individual aircraft loss reporting system seems to have been back in place again from mid-May onwards, so there is much less likelihood of 'missing' losses for I. and III./J.G. 52 for that day. IV./J.G. 54 submitted several loss reports on 24 May, as did I./S.G. 2 and III./S.G. 2 on 25 May (including I./S.G. 2's 20 May loss), so they seem unlikely to have missed any 20 May 1944 combat losses.

Have not analysed the other I. Fliegerkorps units, so perhaps there were unreported losses for them, and I don't have the Rumanian figures either. I'm certainly not trying to argue in favour of the Soviets inventing victory claims on 20 May 1944. Just wanted to examine the evidence a little more thoroughly.

By way of comparison, in June the two types of reports match up much better (although II./J.G. 52 seems to have been less thorough in its paperwork):

F & B – June 1944
Stab J.G. 52 – 1 & 0
I./J.G. 52 – 3 & 7
II./J.G. 52 – 10 & 2
III./J.G. 52 – 2 & 1
15./J.G. 52 – 0 & 0
Total – 16 & 10

SV-F – June 1944
Stab J.G. 52 – 1 & 0 (matches)
I./J.G. 52 – 4 & 1 (1 extra & 6 missing)
II./J.G. 52 – 5 & 1 (5 & 1 missing)
III./J.G. 52 – 3 & 2 (1 & 1 extra!)
15./J.G. 52 – 0 & 0 (matches)
Total – 13 & 4 (3 & 6 missing)

Perhaps some of the experts out there, especially those knowledgeable about Luftwaffe loss reporting (Andreas?), might be able to add their comments and corrections.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications – www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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  #20  
Old 21st May 2015, 08:51
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Thanks Andrew , need to review my stuff and Russian Ops records in order to come up with a detailed update . Also Fw Schwarz 5./SG-10 IL-2 at bridge head Serpeni ,Stab Doctor Gademann Stab III./ SG2 P-39 near Benderi. As I mentioned earlier on the Russian records don't show any P-39 and IL-2 losses neither my own records do. Yes indeed from Leipzig as far as JG 54, SG 2 and some JG 52 assets rest of the other Luftwaffe and Rom assets at Chisinau and Husi . As into your Q at the time of his death and according my info Maj.Otte was with II./SG-2

Will revert . Attached May 20, 44 situation map

Last edited by researcher111; 11th June 2015 at 13:09.
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