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  #21  
Old 22nd May 2015, 08:09
Maxim1 Maxim1 is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy View Post
I feel you may have misinterpreted the Überholung column, which, to the best of my knowledge, usually doesn't indicate heavily damaged aircaft, but war-weary aircraft.
Hi, Andrew

There were some serious debates on this subject about seven years ago. I believe 'Überholung' means 'repair on a factory' because it generally matches with the figures in the 'Reparatur' column. For example, according to all survived F.- und B.-meldungen 578 Do-217 were sent to 'Überholung' and 525 brought back to units as 'Reparatur';

Fw-189 - 412 and 412 respectively;
Fw-190 - 3491 and 4212;
Bf-109 - 5358 and 6764;
Ju-87 - 1113 and 1034;
Ju-88 - 3334 and 3501;
Hs-129 - 236 and 223;
He-111 - 1482 and 1630;
Ju-52 - 1373 and 1260;
Me-110 - 1407 and 1690 etc.

War-weary aircraft must be in the 'ohne Feindeinwirkung' column.
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  #22  
Old 22nd May 2015, 11:46
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

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Originally Posted by Maxim1 View Post
Hi, Andrew

'Überholung' means 'repair on a factory' because it generally matches with the figures in the 'Reparatur' column.
The word is a direct equivalent of the English "overhaul" which certainly implies something thorough, probably involving taking major assemblies apart. It's way beyond a bit of patching up or rectifying immediate defects.
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  #23  
Old 23rd May 2015, 00:28
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Andrew

After further clarifications the Royal Romanian Air Force didn't report any
losses on that day,neither any of my Russian collegues researching the
subject could locate the claimed IL-2's and the P-39's. The Russian claims
were absolutely fictious ,interesting to note that the most of the Russian
claims were by at least 8 HSU recepients and with great probability keen
for further promotions and more fame part of a structured communist system
dictating politics and selective promotion rather airmanship & quality.

Generally speaking despite such ridiculos figures , this won't question
fine pilots such as Retchkalov, Evstigneev ,Guleaev, Klubov, Koshedub ,
Egorov, Arhipenko ,Pokrishkin etc who were acting on my research area.

Maybe you have the possibility to check the losses of 2./NAGr.14 which at
time was located at Comrat not that far from Griogoriopol and those of
KG 55 located at Focsani airfield. One Russian pilot claimed a Taran on one
of those out of 4 HE-111 claimed , but was killed during an attempted landing.

Thanks in advance
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  #24  
Old 23rd May 2015, 07:22
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Hi Maksim,

Thanks for the reply. I've now done a bit of digging, and I was only partially correct when I wrote that the Überholung column: “usually doesn't indicate heavily damaged aircraft, but war-weary aircraft”. Some aircraft in the Überholung column were indeed heavily damaged in combat or accidents and sent to be repaired, but some had suffered only minor damage, others were just war-weary, and others were older variants sent to be overhauled before going to a training unit or similar.

Here are some examples of aircraft from France, where there are records for incoming aircraft to the AGO repair unit at Villacoublay. These were all aircraft entering front-line service in late 1941 and early 1942:

FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0203, 25% damaged 28.03.42, to AGO 30.04.42
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0207, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 02.02.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0211, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 02.04.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0213, 10% 31.05.42, to AGO 06.04.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0216, 70% 10.11.42, to AGO 01.12.42
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0218, 30% 23.05.42, to AGO 14.12.42 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0220, 20% 05.08.42, to AGO 18.08.42
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0221, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 17.09.42 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0224, 25% 30.07.42, to AGO 11.08.42
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0228, 20% 29.05.43, to AGO 13.06.43
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0233, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 29.05.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0235, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 23.09.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-3 WNr. 0244, built 25.02.42, no loss reports, to AGO 20.01.44 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0249, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 08.06.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0251, built 1941, 60% 06.09.42, to AGO 20.09.42
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0252, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 02.04.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-3 WNr. 0256, built 1942, no loss reports, to AGO 05.01.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0261, built 1941, no loss reports, to AGO 19.04.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0263, built 1942, no loss reports, to AGO 12.10.42 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0272,built 1941, 30% 19.08.42, to AGO 07.06.43 [presumably war-weary]
FW 190 A-2 WNr. 0275, built 1941, 70% 31.10.42, to AGO 09.11.42

Some of the above were damaged and sent to AGO within a couple of weeks. Others were clearly just considered war-weary and sent for overhauling. As you can see, the FW 190 A-2s without loss reports were generally sent for repair/overhaul when the variant was superseded by the FW 190 A-4, in late-1942 and the first half of 1943. Thus I'm not sure all the figures in the Überholung column should be considered as aircraft damaged by enemy action or in accidents. For J.G. 52 in May 1944, you can't really say that there were “20 heavily damaged (required extensive repair on a factory)”. Some of the twenty might have been damaged and sent for repair, but certainly not all of them.

Interesting figures you've got there for the overhauled versus received from repair columns. Thanks for sharing them.

As I said in my previous post, I don't know much about this topic. Hopefully the likes of Andreas or Gerhard can step in and provide their thoughts.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications – www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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  #25  
Old 23rd May 2015, 08:26
Andrew Arthy Andrew Arthy is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Hi researcher 111,

There were no 2./N.A.Gr. 14 losses on 20 May 1944. The Stab and 1./N.A.Gr. 14 each reported a loss, both without enemy involvement.

I think that K.G. 55 might have been back at Deblin on the 20th. That night III./K.G. 55 flew a mission from Deblin-Irena, target Sdolbunow. I./K.G. 4 was at Focsani, and flew a mission on 20 May 1944 between 19:44 and 23:10, reporting no enemy contact. At least four aircraft of K.G. 27 were operational over the southern sector of the Eastern Front on the night of 20/21 May 1944, but I have no further details. Other units operating in the area were 3.(F)/121, 2.(F)/22 and Westa 76 (the latter having three aircraft at Focsani).

No doubt others would know more.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com/earticles
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  #26  
Old 23rd May 2015, 11:55
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Andrew

Thanks very much and rather very useful info. Looking through Geschichte aus
Kriegstagebuechern der KG 4 Wever ,3.(F)/121 it can only confirm your statement
as into Wekusta 76 and 2.(F) 22 I have no books or any records at all. Opening
der Chronik der KG 27 Band I page 74, I found HE-111 1G + EY hit somewhere
near Krossno which rather very far from the location described by the Soviets
at 23;10 hrs injuring the crew of Hauptmann Barakling.

Further details on the other two units will be useful
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  #27  
Old 23rd May 2015, 15:20
Maxim1 Maxim1 is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Quote:
Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
interesting to note that the most of the Russian
claims were by at least 8 HSU recepients and with great probability keen
for further promotions and more fame part of a structured communist system
dictating politics and selective promotion rather airmanship & quality.
Wow, what a strong statement. As mentioned before, during one month JG 52 wrotes off 98 planes which is 138% of its strength on 01.05.1944. Not a really good month for the "best fighter unit in history", eh? Sure, Russians with their faked claims have absolutely no relation to the German losses.

As for overclaiming, it is always interesting subject. Let's see, on 28.06., 04.07., 17.07., 17.08 and 23.08.1944 JG 5 pilots claimed more than 130 victories against 13-16 actual Soviet losses. And most of those victories were attributed only to a few claimants, including Walter Schuck, Jakob Norz, Franz Doerr, Rudolf Gloeckner and Heinrich Ehrler.

How about selective promotion rather than airmanship & quality in a structured Nazi system?
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  #28  
Old 23rd May 2015, 15:41
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

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Originally Posted by researcher111 View Post
After further clarifications the Royal Romanian Air Force didn't report any losses on that day...
A Rumanian Bf 109G was shot down at Grigoriopol on 20 May 1944.
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  #29  
Old 23rd May 2015, 16:37
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

By now we count a JU-87 of Otte and a Romanian AAR ME-109 . Both Germans , Axis and Allies overclaimed sometimes too and came up with exagerated victories, no doubt about it . However Germans by nature have a tendency for order and precision, theirs sound lots closer to reality than those produced by Soviet propaganda when most of the German claims can be verified . I can't speak for JG 5 nor forthe maintainace issues of JG 52 writting off fighters due to non combat issues is not my research area .

PS : talking about same propaganda and politics , no other nation arrested
revoked medals, HSU titles , demoted ranks and sent their pilot and
airmen heros on the post WWII era to NKVD camps such as the Vorkuta's type
convicting them of treason, espionage, crimes against USSR etc as the
Stalinist Soviet Union did , all this just because these airmen runned out
of luck landing in German prison camps some of whom barely survived
Auschwitz, Mauthausen ,Buchenwald,etc . Rehab took years sometimes and
those who were executed could not be brought back to life later on . On one
occasion Beria himself forced a HSU pilot's wife to sleep with him and
his puppets at Lubjanka ,as cover up for the actions demoted the pilot,
sent them to a flying club in Far East thus provoking numerous shows
in order to stage an arrest ,demote and revoke him the HSU title .

Beside his HSU title this pilot personally received from Tito the highest
Yugslavian award for bravery while escorting him back from Bari.

This very brave pilot died at 41 in a mental clinic in Odessa .

I am certain you don't hear all this for the first time .

Last edited by researcher111; 23rd May 2015 at 20:18.
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  #30  
Old 23rd May 2015, 19:53
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Re: JG 52 versus Soviet VVC May 20,44

Dachau prison camps etc . I am certain you dont hear it the
first time.


Dachau and Mathausen were KZ lager for civilian from Serbia in WWI. A couple of thousands of prisoner then were died and their grave still exist in that places. For that crime nobody were accused and history tragically repeated in WWII in more tragical volume.

Many concentration camps (KZ lager) in WWII have a different parts so it is not strange for me.

kind regards

Newcomer
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