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Old 1st September 2018, 04:53
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Mia's September 1944 Italy

Hello,

Has anyone any knowledge of Allied Airmen ( not USAAF ? ) that were lost over Italy in September "44 and not yet found ?

If I am correct the Runnymede Memorial does not give place of death, only date and Squadron where known ?

I search for three who were eventually captured and shot. So far I can find no a/c loss that fits their being captured on 1st October '44 after several days hiding in a Barn.

These airmen were in the Brixen, Bozen area according to document signed by the Bergermeister Herr Dr. Stanek.dated 2nd October '44. At the time of the event they were thought to be Americans, but some doubt has recently been shed on their nationality.
Any ideas as to any RAF/RAAF/RNZAF/SAAF a/c downed in this area in 1944 ?
Actually the site is Brixen, better Neustift Riggertal. Rigger Valley. ITALY-NOW South Tyrol.! Some kind of a broad deep canyon.

Sadly, none of the following seem to fit

31/1-9-44
Baltimore V - 55 Sqn - FW459 - Pitts; Cameron; Stogdale; Ives.
1-9-44
Ventura V - 17 Sqn SAAF - JT827 - Bain-Marais; Van Der Walt; Terblanche.
Spitfire VIII - 241 Sqn - JF394 - Hamankiewicz.
2-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 5 Sqn SAAF - FT878 - Dickson/pow, + 15-9-44.
Spitfire IX -'7 Sqn SAAF - MH563 - Griessel.
Mosquito PR XVI - 60 Sqn SAAF - NS532 - Impey ; Saunders.
Spitfire IX - 601 Sqn - Adams.
4-9-44
Marauder III - 30 Sqn SAAF - HD596 - Grants /pow; Bester/pow;Le Sueur/pow; Robb; Gelb; MacNamara.
Beaufighter TF.X - 272 Sqn - NV142 - Burgess ( plus one ?).
Beaufighter TF.X - 272 Sqn - NV203 - West; Young.
6-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 3 Sqn SAAF - FX750 - Hedger (RAAF).
7-9-44
Wellington X - 40 Sqn - LN757 - Quin; Morris; Dobson; Belt; Roberts.
9-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 5 Sqn SAAF - FX570 - Bennee.
Marauder III - 21 Sqn SAAF - HD409 - Andrews; Kimbrey; Maeder; Chessman; Botha; Viret.
11-9-44
Spitfire VB - 5 RFU - ER139 - Waters.
12-9-44
Boston IV - 114 Sqn - BZ499 - Martin; Turner ; Gilbert(?).
Halifax II - 148 Sqn - BB412 - Van der Hart ; O'Brian; Parkinson; McKeen; Ives ; Ireland; Ellison; Cromwell And five passengers, Whitaker(army); Brubec(czeck); Nocar( czeck); Marchiori (Italy); Voglino (Italy).
Spitfire VIII - 417 Sqn - LV754 - Baxter.
13-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 5 Sqn SAAF - FX772 - Morrison.
Marauder III - 21 Sqn SAAF - HD591 - Wilson; Trotsenberg; Whiteham/pow; Horscroft ; Swale/pow; Carter.
Stirling IV - 624 Sqn - LK187 - Owen; Platt; Terry.
17-9-44
Spitfire IX - 1 Sqn SAAF - MA529 - Roy.
Spitfire IX - 1 Sqn SAAF - MH664 - Farrell.
18-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 5 Sqn SAAF - FX841 - Raleigh/pow.
Spitfire IX - 185 Sqn - MK724 - Rowe.
21-9-44
Spitfire IX - 238 Sqn - BS530 - Lee.
22/23-9-44
Halifax II - 1586 Flt - JP222 - Beer ; Kuhn; Milewski; Molinski; Kozlowski; Mirowski; Martyniuk; Woolf.
23-9-44
Auster IV - 654 AOP - MT301 - Farrer.
24-9-44
Warwick ASR 1 - 293 Sqn - BV446 - Purcell; Peacock; Lonsdale; Delmage; Martin.
25-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 3 Sqn SAAF - FX664 - Faria.
Mustang III - 112 Sqn - FB323 - McFie.
Spitfire LF.IXb - 601 Sqn - PT598 - Leslie.(RNZAF).
26-9-44
Kittyhawk IV - 3 Sqn SAAF - FX569 - Sanders.
30-9-44
Liberator B.VI - 31 Sqn SAAF - KG967 - Valentine; Bradshaw; Reilly; Stockford; Airlie; Knight; Rogers; White.

Nore do any in The 2nd vol of the RAF Bomber Losses in the Middle East & Med book

So any ideas ?

Alex
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Old 1st September 2018, 08:44
vathra vathra is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Alex,
It is not so easy. Entire Italy was full of escaped PoW of all nationalities, and they are easy to missidentify and impossible to trace.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 03:47
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Hello,
From what I have been given to understand these three airmen were not identified as escaped Pow's but as recently downed airmen. But as you say it is a possibility to be addressed.
Apart from Italian, German American and British Commonwealth airmen what other nationals were in action over northern Italy in September 1944 ?
Alex
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Old 2nd September 2018, 04:47
Russell Russell is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Hi Alex

31 August 44

55 Sqn FW459 shot down near Faenza. pilot POW.

Lt B J Marais P POW
Flg Off R.A.Pitts N KiA b Faenza;
Flt Sgt C.W. Stogdale; WOP KiA b Faenza
Sgt R.E. Ives AG KiA b Faenza .

took off 0310 approx on morning of 31 August, shot down by Flak, rest of formation returned by 0615.

2/Lt D M Cameron was a navigator lost on 2 September in FW482 on a daylight recce of the north Adriatic,

Send me a PM and I can go through all the others on your list.

Cheers


Russell
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Old 2nd September 2018, 05:25
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

USAAF Losses Italy September 1944
Date - MACR' - Serial - Group - Crew
01. - 5231 - unknown - 465BG - 10 Kia.
02. - 8380 - 42-26421 - 57FG - 1 FOD.
04 - 8390 - 44-41340 - 450BG - 10 (7kia,3pow ).
04. - 8736 - 42-75664 - 57FG - 1 Kia.
04 . - 8777 - 42-75744 - 57FG - 1 Kia.
05 - 8090 - 42-95937 - 320BG - 7 ( 3Kia, 4 Rtd ).
05. - 8370 - 42-51168 - 98BG -10 ( 3Kia, 7Rtd ).
05 - 8734 - 42-75648. - 57FG. - 1 Kia.
05 - 8753 - 42-28355 - 350FG - 1Kia.
05. - 8782 - 42-28559 - 350FG - 1 Kia.
06 - 8343 - 43-24834. - 31FG - 1 Kia.
07 - 8355 - 42-106605 - 52FG - 1 Rtd.
08 - 8446 - 42-51888 - 376BG - 10 ( 2 Kia, 8 Rtd[2Pow]).
09 - 8382 - 43-27735 - 310BG - 6 ( 5 Kia, 1 Rtd).
09 - 16195 - Unknown - 60 TCG - All aboard Killed.
10 - 8740 - 42-76492 - 376BG - 10 ( 2Kia, 8 Rtd).
11 - 16356 - Unknown - 86FG - 1 Kia.
12 - 8351 - 41-28939 - 455BG - 10 ( 10Pow/Rtd).
12 - 8747 - 41-28762 - 376BG - 11 ( 4Kia, 7 Rtd).
12 - 8781 - 42-27921 - 86FG - 1Kia.
12 - 8945 - 42-75729 - 57FG - 1 Kia.
13 - 8444 - 42-7748. - 450BG - 10 ( 5Pow/5Evdr[10Rtd] ).
13 - 8448 - 44-6349. - 483BG - 10 ( 9Kia, 1Pow/Rtd).
13 - 8764 - 42-52363 - 460BG - 11 ( 2Kia + 1Fod/8 Rtd).
13 - 8953 - 44-6354. - 97BG - 10
14 - 9669 - 44-23230 - 3PRG - 1Fod.
15 - 8775 - 42-75679 - 57FG - 1 Kia.
15 - 9900 - 42-97568 - 483BG - All Pow/Rtd.
16 - 8944 - 42-28322 - 350FG - 1Kia.
18 - 8938 - 43-27771 - 310BG - 6 (5 + [1Pow] Rtd).
18 - 8940 - 43-28068 - 310BG - 7 ( 1Kia, 5 + [1Pow] Rtd).
19 - 15288 - FD865. - RAF. - All killed .
22 - 8963 - 42-27002 - 86FG - 1 Pow/Rtd.
22 - 8964 - 42-28042 - 86FG - 1Kia.
22 - 9038 - 42-27264 - 350FG - 1Rtd.
23 - 8965 - 42-27946 - 86FG - 1Pow/Rtd.
23 - 8936 - 42-107555 - 319BG - 5 ( 2Kia, 2 + [1Pow] Rtd ).
25 - 8961 - 42-28329 - 350FG - 1Pow/Rtd.
25 - 9709 - ND294. - 414NFS - 2 (2 Kia ).
26 - 8941 - 42-95785 - 319BG - 1Kia, 1 Evd.
26 - 8962 - 42-27244 - 86FG - 1Pow/Rtd.
30 - 8966 - 42-26992 - 86FG - 1Rtd.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 05:33
RSwank RSwank is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Alex, case number 96 on the first page of the link is about a war crime that happened Oct 1 at Bressanone (Brixen) Italy in which three British soldiers were murdered. Is this the same case? If they really were soldiers (as opposed to airmen) I think it is more likely they were escaped POWs.

https://www.legal-tools.org/doc/dd852f/pdf/
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Old 2nd September 2018, 05:54
Alex Smart Alex Smart is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Hello Rolland,
Thank you for the link.
The wording in the correspondence is " amerikanische Soldaten" and also "amerikanische Fliegersoldaten"
So you have now opened up another question as to Soldier's or Airmen ?
Have not yet looked at the link but you may well have solved this problem if the details match.
Alex
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Old 2nd September 2018, 11:35
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Is there any possibility that they were OSS or SOE agents dropped to work with Italian partisans?
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Old 2nd September 2018, 14:18
Zoran Petek Zoran Petek is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Smart View Post
Hello,
Apart from Italian, German American and British Commonwealth airmen what other nationals were in action over northern Italy in September 1944 ?
Alex
Don't forget French.
For example B-26 42-107765 #39 of GBM II/20 Bretagné, Sardinia. Crash landed in Italy 10.9.44.
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Old 2nd September 2018, 15:30
Bruce Dennis Bruce Dennis is offline
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Re: Mia's September 1944 Italy

The trial mentioned by Rolland in post 6 is covered in a file at TNA Kew:


WO235/128 (part of series - Judge Advocate General's Office: War Crimes Case Files, Second World War)
Defendant: Max Frindt.
Defendant: Peter Hafner.
Defendant: Christian Pfalzer.
Place of Trial: Milan.


I have not viewed the file but it may contain details that would nail it down one way or the other.


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