Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[keith A]

As you say Franek, no point in discussing it further, I am too old a hare to change my mind unless I have definitive proof and my comments on attribution linked to losses, (especially where the loss in no way resembles the claim) stand. Again we will have to agree to differ, life's too short .

Mistakes in identification do happen, but when they verge on the fantastic I go with what is credible, even if it's frustrating.

Have a happy new year

regards

Keith

[HGabor]

I am wondering if there is any record available on the strength of the German flight (No. of Bf 109s) during Hartmann's claims. This might help to narrow down the possibilities. Eg. on November 16, 1944 Koptelov's Yak-9D (5 VA, 6 GvIAD, 31 GvIAP, S/N: 2015370) was hit by 2 Bf 109s out of six. See in first list in this thread. Did Hartman fly in a group of 6 (or so) Bf 109 this time? Or he just usually flew in recce. pairs? If so, he just had one witness...etc. Narrative report:

"14:20 (Moscow time) 4 Як Н-3000 м при подходе к району патрулирования севернее Ясберень, атаковаы 2-мя Ме-109 снизу в лоб из группы в 6 Ме-109. Приняли лобовую атаку, после чего развернулись на 180 гр и стали преследовать группу Ме-109. После атаки мотор задымил, стали ррваться снаряды. Коптелов развернулся и с курсом 90 гр пошел на свою территорию по реке Тисса. ??12 км восточнее Яскишер на Н-800 м самолет загорелся?? выпрыгнул из горящего самолета на парашюте. Самолет сгорел, летчик прибыл в часть 18.11.44."

(See brief loss entry for Koptelov.)
Thanks, - and Happy New Year!
Gabor

[Dan History]

Thank you for continuing to share your excellent ressearch with us, Gabor.

From my own experience, the reports by all sides concerning the size of enemy formations encountered can be very inaccurate, so I wouldn't necessarily trust that report that six 109s were present, double counting by pilots is a possibility.

As I mentioned in a message to you, it is really writing up some of your research as an article.

Happy New Year!

Dan

[HGabor]

Thanks Dan, but in research I hate time pressure, so if I decide to write an article, I would rather complete it first, before contacting any publisher. But back to Hartmann. On November 17, 1944 he claimed an Boston III bomber:

316: 17.11.1944 – 14:25 Boston III 4./JG 52 98 584: at 2.000m

In November, 1944 the soviets were still testing the defense of the Hungarian capital, Budapest. On November 4, 1944 eg. a mixed soviet tank-group reached the -SE suburbs of the city and got completely destroyed. 8 SU-76M of 1509 САП, 1 IS-2 heavy tank of 30 Гв.ОТТП and 3-4 T-34 of 39 Гв.ТП burned out at Pestszentimre ('Pest-St. Emeric') - Gyál in a well organized ambush. Learning the lesson, the soviets decided to keep a little break and gather more forces before starting the actual battle for the city.

The 5th Air Army also flew recce. missions over the City. As part of this, on November 17, 1944 small groups of 5 VA, 218 BAD A-20G Bostons bombed the southern area of Budapest. As discussed earlier, the 453 BAP lost 2 Bostons this day, one in combat mission, one in an accident. These were the only Boston losses of the 5 VA on November 17, 1944. The one lost in combat (A-20G-10-DO, S/N: 42-53956) from a group of 3 Bostons became Capt. Pottyondy László, Hungarian ace's (102/2. Sq.) confirmed victory. 6 Bf 109s attacked the plane, including the pair of friends: Hartmann and Pottyondy, shooting out its RIGHT engine (radial R-2600-23, S/N: 42-174979). Both the Hungarian and the soviet reports agree in this detail! The bomber crashlanded and burned. Only 2 crewmen returned to their lines (Pilot Danielyan, and gunner Kopilov), the other 2 (Rizhkov and Vigovskii) died in the fighter-fire.

But: Other Bostons also reported dogfights in the Budapest-S area! Perhaps one of these was attacked and claimed by Hartmann. But if so, it was an overclaim:

While leaving the target at 2600 m, 5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G Boston, piloted by Maj. Evgenii Efimovich Stroganov (under 15-20 degree angle) was attacked by 2 Bf 109s. Radioman-air gunner, Sgt. Alexei Ermolaevich Chernikov claimed a Bf 109 shot down.

5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP, 3rd Sq. A-20G Boston, piloted by Capt. Pavel Arsentevich Zhalibo (к-н Жалибо Павел Арсентьевич, Sq. commander (№046738)) was attacked by 9 Bf 109 under ~25-30 degree angle. All attack were repelled by the gunners, but during the last strike the plane was slightly damaged. (AC number is unknown, but on January 2, 1945 Zhalibo was killed in A-20G-15-DO Boston, S/N: 42-54186, so perhaps he flew the same plane this time too. Capt. Zhalibo (and his crew), by the way, was a real hero. While taking off from Debrecen airfield towards the city for another Budapest mission, one of their engines stopped. Instead of releasing their bomb-load on civilians and the city, at low altitude, he tried to return to their airfield with the fully loaded bomber, flying on only one engine. They reached the airfield OK, but at landing their bomb-load went off and the whole crew lost their lives.)

5 VA, 218 BAD, 452 BAP A-20G Boston, piloted by Ml.Lt. Petr Mihailovich Kovzalov, flight-commander was attacked by 4 Bf 109s without any result. They were flying recce-bombing mission in the Dunaföldvár-Budapest-S area.

Gabor

[Christer Bergström]

Hi Gabor, excellent research!

Do you get your info from Pamyat Naroda, or do you do own research in the TsAMO files?

Have you seen my recently published Black Cross/Red Star, Volume 4?

https://vaktelforlag.se/produkt/blac...ban-1942-1943/

Happy New Year & all the best,

Christer Bergström

[HGabor]

Thanks Christer.
Yes, I know that site (and a few others), but the core info in this research was straight from TsAMO docs (combat unit diaries, maintenance-, mechanical-papers: notes and photocopies) from Podolsk, Russia, provided by local Russian researcher colleagues, having access to the Archives and helping our museum. As far as I know, most of these docs are not available on the internet. For several years, I have been the volunteer 'database admin' of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum (living abroad), which organized aircraft recovery and restoration for all, including soviet aircrafts in Hungary. To be able to identify the recovered remains we needed to build a detailed database of them, including AC serial and aircraft-engine serial numbers, crew lists, etc. on ALL lost soviet warplanes in Hungary, mainly in 1944-45, - and a few after 1942. These were lost planes of the soviet 5th Air Army (2nd ukrainian Front), 17th Air Army (3rd Ukrainian Front), plus some 8th Air Army and Long-Range Air Army planes. ALL losses in the country. Using this database we were able to identify several soviet planes and through them a few missing crewmembers as well. Luckily the engine serials are still well visible on most of the recovered engines and the AC serial is also visible in some cases. (See IL-2m3 S/N: 1875397 on a recovered aluminum fragment from the plane of the Ml.Lt. Evgenii Pavlovich Kartashev - Sgt. Vladimir Alexeevich Gladkov crew.)
For a long time I have not even thought to use this database to check Axis claims, we used it only for plane IDs. But then I read Helmut Lipfert's book and randomly compared it to the soviet losses. I was positively shocked to see that almost all of Lipfert's claims match the soviet reports. Then -just out of curiosity-, I checked Hartmann's claims. Telling you, it was a negative shock!!! To me: a 'historical-scale' shock to realize, how weak his claims and his '352' can be... Now I know, only about 30% of his claims were potential victories, the rest were just damaged planes (at best) for the time period of his service in Hungary. This is a unique situation to be able to compare claims to verified losses of the other side. No room for excuses, legends, and no room for bla-bla...
That's it. Cheers,
Gabor

[HGabor]

Christer, your book looks awesome! Do you plan to write it all the way to VE-Day? All the best and Happy New Year!
Gabor

[Kapper]

Gabor,

I believe that when comparing claims to losses we should be checking out everything that can possibly be checked – no matter how ridiculous it may appear to be at the time. Most times you will come up blank but occasionally you will come across something that will totally surprise you (as others on TOCH have highlighted). Anything written about claims will be subject to a great deal of scrutiny and if anything is missed in the research it effects the credibility of the author.

Anyway, I’ve attached 2 word document files – I tried to post these but due to formatting issues (especially with the tables)- it didn’t come out well, so I’ve put them in word format attachments.

The first is about the claims data used for your analysis which I have concerns about, especially the Il-2 claims.

The second is something that I wrote to Johannes a few years ago when discussing whether Hartmann was a fraudulent claimer. I’ve modified it a bit from the original I sent Johannes but still contains some information that some may find interesting.

For what it’s worth I believe Hartmann over-claimed and was not a fraud. I believe the true extent of his claims is somewhere between 175 and 250.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Craig…

[HGabor]

Craig, thank you very much for the attached docs. It will definitely take for awhile to go through them in detail. For now, I just emphasize that my numbers came strictly from the verified losses of the other (soviet) side. Since I did not just want to make short statements of victories and/or overclaims, I listed all soviet plane losses of the days, when Hartmann claimed a plane, at least between October 27-December 9, 1944 with details. (This way you can also judge if a certain case could be a victory, or just an overclaim.)
I know, Hartmann's claims is a huge job and I think nobody would be able to complete it alone. My calculation of Hartmann's approx. 100 real WWII victories comes from his overclaim/victory-ratio between Oct 27 - Dec 9, 1944. (~28 claims) If for any reason his claims were more accurate in the earlier, or in the later stages of the war, then certainly this number will change accordingly.

At this point I still think that if the soviets lost no plane on a specific day/time/location, then it does not really matter what theories and numbers we use, all of these claims for the day will remain just overclaims. (Even if the planes were really hit and damaged by Hartmann, - that I do not doubt.)

Cheers,
Gabor

[Nick Hector]

Well,

With Gabor's research and this other recent thread:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=55731

We have not one but TWO periods of Hartmann's claiming to examine in-depth....