Hartmann: claims vs. victories

[HGabor]

Thanks Christer.
Yes, I know that site (and a few others), but the core info in this research was straight from TsAMO docs (combat unit diaries, maintenance-, mechanical-papers: notes and photocopies) from Podolsk, Russia, provided by local Russian researcher colleagues, having access to the Archives and helping our museum. As far as I know, most of these docs are not available on the internet. For several years, I have been the volunteer 'database admin' of the Szolnok Aircraft Museum (living abroad), which organized aircraft recovery and restoration for all, including soviet aircrafts in Hungary. To be able to identify the recovered remains we needed to build a detailed database of them, including AC serial and aircraft-engine serial numbers, crew lists, etc. on ALL lost soviet warplanes in Hungary, mainly in 1944-45, - and a few after 1942. These were lost planes of the soviet 5th Air Army (2nd ukrainian Front), 17th Air Army (3rd Ukrainian Front), plus some 8th Air Army and Long-Range Air Army planes. ALL losses in the country. Using this database we were able to identify several soviet planes and through them a few missing crewmembers as well. Luckily the engine serials are still well visible on most of the recovered engines and the AC serial is also visible in some cases. (See IL-2m3 S/N: 1875397 on a recovered aluminum fragment from the plane of the Ml.Lt. Evgenii Pavlovich Kartashev - Sgt. Vladimir Alexeevich Gladkov crew.)
For a long time I have not even thought to use this database to check Axis claims, we used it only for plane IDs. But then I read Helmut Lipfert's book and randomly compared it to the soviet losses. I was positively shocked to see that almost all of Lipfert's claims match the soviet reports. Then -just out of curiosity-, I checked Hartmann's claims. Telling you, it was a negative shock!!! To me: a 'historical-scale' shock to realize, how weak his claims and his '352' can be... Now I know, only about 30% of his claims were potential victories, the rest were just damaged planes (at best) for the time period of his service in Hungary. This is a unique situation to be able to compare claims to verified losses of the other side. No room for excuses, legends, and no room for bla-bla...
That's it. Cheers,
Gabor

[HGabor]

Christer, your book looks awesome! Do you plan to write it all the way to VE-Day? All the best and Happy New Year!
Gabor

[Kapper]

Gabor,

I believe that when comparing claims to losses we should be checking out everything that can possibly be checked – no matter how ridiculous it may appear to be at the time. Most times you will come up blank but occasionally you will come across something that will totally surprise you (as others on TOCH have highlighted). Anything written about claims will be subject to a great deal of scrutiny and if anything is missed in the research it effects the credibility of the author.

Anyway, I’ve attached 2 word document files – I tried to post these but due to formatting issues (especially with the tables)- it didn’t come out well, so I’ve put them in word format attachments.

The first is about the claims data used for your analysis which I have concerns about, especially the Il-2 claims.

The second is something that I wrote to Johannes a few years ago when discussing whether Hartmann was a fraudulent claimer. I’ve modified it a bit from the original I sent Johannes but still contains some information that some may find interesting.

For what it’s worth I believe Hartmann over-claimed and was not a fraud. I believe the true extent of his claims is somewhere between 175 and 250.

Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Craig…

[Nick Hector]

Well,

With Gabor's research and this other recent thread:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=55731

We have not one but TWO periods of Hartmann's claiming to examine in-depth....

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

Well,

With Gabor's research and this other recent thread:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=55731

We have not one but TWO periods of Hartmann's claiming to examine in-depth....

If the people actively contributing data to those threads would like them merged, let me know. Otherwise, I’ll leave you to continue the good work.

[Franek Grabowski]

Craig addressed some important issues.
It is impossible to assess individual performance by statistics, indeed, because it is against the rules of statistics.
Plenty of German data comes from highest levels of command, hence they are prone to errors, passed by various chains of command. There are no combat reports, which should perhaps be considered most accurate, though not necessarily could be. Pilots could not remember the exact details, or the person filing them could misunderstand them, or even the pilots did not assess the situation accurately. BTW I understand that Russell's data are coming from germandocsinrussia site, and several daily reports held there.

It is not possible to assess results of air combats by simple correlation of time and place.
It is a necessity to compare detailed information from both sides to draw accurate conclusions, and even if fully documented, it is often not possible to recreate events.
It is always worth to remember that claims and credited victories are two different things, the latter being the effect of activity of a bureaucratic machinery, rather than pilots themselves. Neither claim nor credited victory is equal to actual loss.

Thus perhaps it is easier to discuss such issues on a unit level rather than individual level.
My personal observation is, that the German units on the western front overclaimed to a much higher degree, that widely thought. It is believed that the victories credited to JG 26 are highly accurate. It looks like the number of credited victories matches to the number of aircraft lost. The problem is, that accurate scrutiny of allied losses show, that plenty of those losses were to various different reasons, but not necessarily German action. Thus the one may assume that there was a preliminary selection of claims, which were then reduced to the number of wrecks found with no available paper record. Without the initial claim list it is not possible to properly assess the issue. The otherproblem is, that available victory lists are highly inaccurate, missing important details, or obviously erroneous, this becoming obvious after careful scrutiny of each combat. In the effect, it is often not possible to say, that one victory is valid, and the other is not.
Finally, about Marseille. I do not know, how accurately allied losses in Africa were recorded. This is a common problem for overseas units, that the paperwork was not kept accordingly, and they often were not very attractive for researchers, thus available information might not be the best to say the least. Such massive projects like Fighters over the Desert are often not accurate because of numbers of data involved, not possible to verify by a limited number of researchers. So the rule of the limited trust is always valid. The additional problem is, that most of Marseille's combats were not on equal terms. He always had a technical edge, and also the tactics of the Desert Air Force was not much to expectations. As soon as Spitfires appeared in the theatre, flown by experienced pilots aimed at scoring victories, the joy has ended. I presume, that Marseille would not last long on the ETO, where things were much more equal. Thus he was a highest scoring pilot, perhaps, but not necessarily the best one.

[HGabor]

Folks, just to make things a bit more complicated. Picture this:

Let's say Hartmann hits the Yak-1B and claims a similar looking Yak-9 victory. Yak-1B does not crash, but rather returns to base and lands safely. Pilot unhurt. Soviet mechanics start to repair the plane. After some days and nights, while 'frequently wishing all the best to the mother of the German pilot', they finally give up. Not worth to repair. HQ writes off the plane as 'wear and tear'. ('износ') Not to mention that this is the time of re-arming the regiment with newer Yak models. Yak-9M and/or Yak-3. The old and used Yak-1s are almost scrap metal anyways.

Now: was this a victory, or not? If Hartmann does not hit the plane, it is still in service. But he did not destroy it either. The date of the write-off is completely independent from the date of the battle. No link between the two.

Few examples of wear-and-tear 'losses' of the 5 VA, 331 IAD in late, 1944:

Yak-1B, S/N: 16180 - December 21, 1944
Yak-9T, S/N: 0715378 - December 22, 1944
Yak-1B, S/N: 23160 - December 23, 1944
Yak-1B, S/N: 41177 - December 23, 1944

The majority of these 'losses' was simply age related, I am sure.
But still - a small chance of the prev. described story... Impossible to trace and investigate.

Gabor

[Franek Grabowski]

Absolutely! Let's get for example the Me 109E at the RAF Museum. It was credited as a destroyed to the victorious pilot. Nonetheless it flew for quite a while under new management, and you can still see it in one piece. If landed on the other side of the Channel it would probably be listed with minor damage. On the other hand you can see eg. Spitfires, obviously write offs being repaired early in the war, and slightly damaged aircraft being written off late in the war.
Hence it is more important to find out who was on the receiving end, rather than to look for destroyed aircraft only.
Aside, Hartmann's victories were of no importance. Luftwaffe just los the war in the air in general.

[FalkeEins]

Thanks Nick. I deleted my follow-up comment as I don't want to 'bash' Hartmann. He did what he had to do - and voluntarily accepted 10 years of Soviet captivity.

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

With "over-claimers" something else appears, that being "huge daily claims", yet even something else, that being big numbers e.i "100" "200" "300" days this meaning that on the day they get their "200th" it's a big day i.e Hartmann 193-202, 291-301, Rudorffer is another notable "big score claimer", the most notable high scoring pilots not having "huge daily claims" would be Günther Rall and Helmut Lipfert…….. it's very noticeable indeed, in fact with the purely honest guys they hardily every achieve 5+ in a day(except night-fighter pilots)

The greatest 5+ daily claimers were:- Nowotny, Hartmann, Rudorffer and Emil Lang.

Hans-Joachim Marseille it contrary to any patterns the other pilots show, and contrary to the theory that "big daily scorers" were all "over-claimers"

Kind Regards

Johannes