Casualties Luftwaffe Italy 1943

[Geschwader2135]

How many planes, KIA, WIA, MIA had Luftwaffe in Southitaly in Sept 1943? Foggia and Salerno.

[Larry deZeng]

You must be joking! Good one!!

[Nick Beale]

You could try locating a copy of Karl Gundelach’s “Die Deutsche Luftwaffe im Mittelmeerraum” which I seem to remember included a lot of graphs and so on. Alternatively there are the General Quartiermeister’s aircraft loss and damage reports which are held at the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg or on microfilm at the Imperial War Museum. Sit down with those and start counting … But allow yourself a lot of time.

[Jim P.]

Along with Nick's suggestions, you could also find a lot of that information in the Shores, Massimello & Guest title "A History of the Mediterranean Air War 1940-45, Vol. 4: Sicily & Italy to the Fall of Rome". That book, along with the earlier 3 volumes, lists most all of the combat losses in the theater.

[Larry deZeng]

O.K. Nick and Jim...........I'm thinking you may have missed my point, specifically, specificity:

- Luftwaffe aircraft over just land in South Italy, or over both land and water? If over water is to be included, then how far out should we include?
- Define "South Italy" using latitude delimiters.
- Are we talking just aircrew or are we including Bodenorganisation personnel, too?
- Do you want all Luftwaffe aircraft, or just fighters?
- How about non-Luftwaffe aircraft passengers? A lot of transport aircraft got shot down over South Italy.
- What about non-combat Luftwaffe injuries?

I would also note that the Luftwaffe casualty figures at BA-MA that survived the war are almost always given by Luftflotten Bereich; e.g., Luftflottenkommando 2 (Italy) so figures for September 1943 would include that entire huge area of the Mediterranean with no separation or breakdown into sub-areas. An intrepid researcher colleague who used to come here under the screen name Paul Thompson has been through all of the Luftwaffe aircraft and personnel loss reports at BA-MA and I feel confident that he would agree with me. Concurrently, I've been through most of them myself.

L.

[Jim P.]

Larry, you're absolutely spot on. There was no criticism on my part meant to you.

On the other hand, such an open ended inquiry as from the initial poster, is in so many ways like wow! You and many others have spent years researching this stuff, and that someone can think that there is a simple answer without - I'm not sure what to call it - is very naive at best. (I guess I might include myself amongst the researchers.)

That someone thinks that there is a simple straight forward answer to such a question without delving into the literature or records themselves is a bit out there. You set or asked questions about the parameters. All totally valid. But the initial poster did not.

His question is valid, but the answer is, as you stated, complicated. And the initial poster needs to realize that there is work involved in such a question, rather than a ready-made answer by posting such a request on the net. Don't ask us to do your danged research for you!

[Nick Beale]

Larry and Jim, I agree with both of you absolutely. One has only to look at the huge lists of Italian and German aircraft left behind on airfields in Sicily and Southern Italy to appreciate just what a job it would be to arrive at a total, whatever one decided to include or exclude.

[Larry deZeng]

Jim and Nick, you said it perfectly. I just hope Geschwader2135 takes our comments in the spirit they were intended, rolls up his sleeves, and steps into the sea of unpublished and published material to see what he can find. If his target is just aircraft and aircrew, then he could start with the Gen.Qu.(6.Abt.) Verlustmeldungen bei d. fliegende Verbände since he is only looking for one month's worth of losses, and then fine tune from there. He should also be aware that whatever he comes up with will not be definitive and will certainly not include all of those junked aircraft laying around on 100+ airfields in S Italy that Nick mentioned.

L.

[Franek Grabowski]

Frankly, I am suprised with the replies. The war ended 75 years ago. Do not you think it is about the time to have such information published at last, and do not send anyone to do the job again from the primary stuff? AFAIK there are at least five extensive databases of Lw losses, and UI think only one of them is being slowly published. Still, reworking it back into an electronic format to produce statistical data seems pointless. I do not suggest that everything should have been for free, but what is the problem in publishing a book with some stats and Orders of Battle?
I am also surprised nobody suggested monthly reports that are available on the web. I guess they should provide the necessary information.

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Do not you think it is about the time to have such information published at last?

I’m sure that we all have subjects that we would like to know more about and the choice is either to wait and hope for something to appear, or to make a start oneself.