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  #11  
Old 7th April 2016, 21:31
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Gentlemen,

I refer you to Dan O'Connell's Production Log, (2005):

"500100 Me 262 A-1a/U3 ... Between 09:35 and 10:00 on 1 April 1945 it was ferried by Lt. Herbert Schubert of 2./NAG 6 from Lechfeld to Unterschlauersbach. At 16:25 he left for Brandis, arriving at 17:06 where the nosegear collapsed on landing... [my emphasis] -from p. 165.

On p. 57 is a picture of the port side of a "White 26" taken at Lechfeld. To my eye, the squiggle pattern just ahead of the balkenkreuz is identical to that of the Me 262 A-1/U3 with a collapsed nosegear seen in the coloured pictures on p. 63. I posit that these coloured pictures were taken at Brandis and that White 26 was indeed from 2./NAGr 6.

The only document I have seen connecting aircraft of NAGr6 to III./EJG 2 at Lechfeld is a table entitled "Die folgende Tabelle die Zuteilungen und die Bestande in den Verbanden It. RL 2/III 624" found in Andreas Zapf's online work Mosquitos & Schwaben on p. 145. At the bottom of the column entitled "Aufklarer: NAGr 1 u 6" is the comment "14 Flzge zur Abgabe an III./EJG 2 befohlen".

I, too, would like the Werknummer confirmed.

best regards,

Jim Geens
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  #12  
Old 8th April 2016, 10:08
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Nick Beale Nick Beale is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ouidjat View Post
Nick,

Link doesn't open ... here.
Yeah, sorry about that! I posted the file location on my own computer, no use to anyone except me. It's corrected now.
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  #13  
Old 10th April 2016, 00:32
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Hi Roland,

Photos of this aircraft - White 26 - at Lechfeld infer that its werknummer is most probably 500251 and not 500100 as originally thought. This werknummer also is found on documents associated with Me 262 A-1a/U3 aircraft.

Cheers,

David
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  #14  
Old 10th April 2016, 15:03
Karoband Karoband is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Hi Roland,

After much squinting and enlarging, I have to agree with David that the werknummer seems to be 500251 and retract my remarks linking it with FAGr 6.

Thanks, David. You have a sharp eye.

Jim
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  #15  
Old 10th April 2016, 22:58
RolandF RolandF is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Thank you for the confirmation. Makes me rely on my own eyes again.
Unfortunately those FWE-applied Werknummern are always hard to read because they come to lie in the shadows of the horizontal stabilizers.
For WNr 500100 I have a double entry as "white 27". Can this be regarded as correct, then?

Regards
RolandF

Last edited by RolandF; 10th April 2016 at 23:07. Reason: white 27
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  #16  
Old 10th April 2016, 23:17
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Could it be 500451? FHC was coded 'White 25' and its W.Nr was 500453. Haven't had a chance to look at the photo but both were recon variants with the same units and markings.

Mark
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  #17  
Old 11th April 2016, 04:16
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes


Roland and Mark,

Below is a summary of the III./EJG 2 Me 262 A-1a/U3 machines found at Lechfeld (and elsewhere) from my files that might shed a bit of light on what is currently known of their identities and fates.

Cheers,

David


White 25: Werknummer 500453? It is not 500491 as listed by Handig (1997) as this particular Werknummer belongs to the NASM aircraft, “Yellow 7” of III./JG 7 on display in Washington. It is most probably a 500000-series aircraft, but no photos are known of the tail area at the time of its capture. However, the camouflage scheme confirms that it was an Eger-Cheb converted 500000-Werknummereries aircraft. After capture at Lechfeld in April 1945, it was named “Connie, My Sharp Article” and later in June at Melun France renamed “Pick II” and Whizzer No.444. Once in the United States it was given the USAF identity FE-4012 and eventually ended up in the Planes of Fame Museum in Chino, California. At some point it lost its original U/3 nose that was replaced with a fighter nose from another aircraft. It also had the MK 108 at one time, as photos from Lechfeld reveal the patch on the nose cone. Today it is part of Paul Allen’s Flying Heritage Collection. Recent restoration by the FHC team has discovered a number of components marked “453”. WNr.500453 is listed not listed as an aircraft In Boehme’s publication, nor has it been identified in the work by Brown, Poruba and Vladar (2012), so the assignment of this werknummer to White 25 is tentative.

White 26: Werknummer 500251. This is one of the NAG 6 aircraft in the Lechfeld junkpile. Several photos are known but the last half of the Werknummer is in shadow in most images save one of it in front of the airfield’ south hanger. Colour photos of this aircraft seen in Radinger and Schick (1992), Smith and Creek (2000), Boehme (2001), and Brown, Poruba and Vladar (2012). Comparison of the camouflage and markings with black & white photos (e.g. Wadman, 1997) confirms its identity. Scrapped in 1946.

White 27: Werknummer 500098. Found at Lechfeld. US identities as “Joanne” / “Cookie VII” / 666. Crashed Pittsburgh, PA on August 9, 1945. Information from Butler (1994) and published photos from various sources.

White 29: Werknummer 500853. Found at Lechfeld, one of three in the junkpile behind the south hanger. Werknummer visible in a number of published photos from various sources. Scrapped in 1946.

White 30: Werknummer 500???. Werknummer most probably in 500000-series. Captured at Lechfeld. US identities as “Marge” / “Lady Jess IV” / 222, accepted by the USN and identified as BuAer.121443. Crashed at Patuxent, MD on July 11, 1945. Information from Butler (1994) and published photos from various sources.

White 33: Werknummer 500539. Several good photos published in various sources of this aircraft illustrating its Werknummer. Also from the Lechfeld dump behind the south hanger. Scrapped in 1946.

White 34: Werknummer 500252?. This aircraft was along the autobahn south on Munich where it transects the Holfoldinger Forest about a kilometer north of the hamlet of Brunnthal where it was dragged to the collection point there and later junked. Several photos show an indecipherable black line where the Werknummer should be in the lower position (and none in the upper position), further supporting a 500000-series Werknummer. In one image, the last digit ‘2’ is visible under the tailplane. Boehme (2000) lists 500252 as the werknummer of a U3 – there are no others ending with a ‘2’. Given the very few Me 262s converted to the U3 variant, it is probable that this is its werknummer. Scrapped in 1946.

REFERENCES:

Boehme, M., 2001
Strahlaufklärer Messerschmitt Me 262 – Die Geschichte der Nahaufklärungsgruppe 6.
VDM Heinz Nickel, Zweibrücken, 111p.

Brown, D.E., Poruba, T., and Vladař, J., 2012
Messerschmitt Me 262 Production & Arado Ar 234 Final Operations – Luftwaffe over Czech Territory 1945 - Volume IV.
JaPo, Hradec Kralove, 261p.

Butler, P., 1994
War Prizes.
Midland County Publications, Earl Shilton, 320p.

Handig, M, 1997
Die selten Jet-Späher - Me 262 A-1a/U3 Behelfsaufklärer.
Oesterreich Flugzeug Historiker Nachrichten, 2/97, p.22-27.

Radinger, W., and Schick, W., 1992
Me 262 – Entwicklung, Erprobung und Fertigung des ersten einsatzfähigen Düssenjägers der Welt.
Aviatic Verlag GmbH, Planegg, 111p.

Smith, J.R., and Creek, E.J., 2000
Me 262 – Volume 3.
Classic Publications, Crowborough, 220p.

Wadman, D, Bradley, J. and Ketley, B., 1997
Aufklärer – Luftwaffe Reconnaissance Aircraft & Units 1935-1945.
Hikoki Publications, Aldershot, 272p.
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  #18  
Old 11th April 2016, 09:49
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

David

Not sure why you don't list Dan's book Me 262 - the production log 1941-1945 in your sources.

However your details for WNr 500252 is at odds with what he says about it.
He also lists a white 34 as WNr 500004. If that is the same one you refer to, I don't know.

What is most interesting to me, with all the captured 262's (including the various wreckages) is how sloppily the recording of them was by the Allies.
One would have thought they should have received very much the 'VIP' treatment in every respect, but obviously not so. You list seven aircraft and three of them carry question marks. Quite revealing....

Cheers
Stig
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  #19  
Old 12th April 2016, 04:21
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David E. Brown David E. Brown is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Hi Stig,

As noted in my post, the material therein comes from my files (of varying vintages) that in many cases are abbreviated. As such, complete details on each machine were not included for brevity's sake. That said, I am well aware of Dan's seminal work having assisting him from the beginning. Since its publication Dan has continued to collect new and update existing information in his compilation. Many of us would love to see an updated version of your book Dan!

Regarding White 34, well, since there is no photo of its complete werknummer, it has to remain unconfirmed (hence the '?'). The interpretation that it was 500004 is likewise a reflection of the state of knowledge when Dan's book was published. Hopefully one day we'll see a photo of it where the werknummer is not in shadow.

I agree that one would think that the Allies would have been more careful in recording the identities of all the machines they captured. I suppose that in the end it didn't really matter as they eventually had lots of examples of aircraft types specified in their Cat-1 lists and traded amongst themselves to ensure everyone got what they desired. In some cases, yes, werknummern were recorded but not in many others. We are just lucky that photos were taken that eventually would permit later identification. But as you know, the identity of some kites - and a number of them still preserved - remains elusive.

I suppose that ultimately, with the war over, everyone just wanted to wrap things up and get home...

Cheers,

David
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  #20  
Old 12th April 2016, 09:49
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: eBAy: Captured german planes

Hi David

Yes I can understand your points regarding information gathering, but in my mind that is not how intelligence work. You collect every detail you can find since you never ever know if you one day just might need that tiny detail no one bothered about at the time.....

So to me it still is rather fascinating how much the Allies missed out....

Cheers
Stig
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