Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 23rd September 2018, 22:34
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Thanks for the comment, Laurent. It’s a convincing argument in favor of the fact that the long-nosed Fw-190 could appear in the reports before their real appearance on east front.

I continue to dig the topic and collected 1st Air Army VVS OOB on starting of the Invasion into East Prussia. Tried to put it in this thread, but probably did not pass the moderation. Obviously this information is more for the branch of the Allied and Soviet Air Forces. Do you think it makes sense to create one more topic on the East Prussian operation in that branch? Or, maybe this information is not very interesting?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 9th October 2018, 11:40
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Good day, everyone!
I have coulpe of questions about docs, cause of my lack of German.
In attached doc, “Eingesetze Shlachtflufzeuge 76“ means that 76 sorties were made by ground-attack planes or 76 ground-attack planes were used? I think that first suggestion is correct, but I want be sure.
And second question is what stabsstaffel on Fw 190 could be meant (between III./ JG 51 and III./ JG 52). JG 52’s stakas were flying Bf 109 I believ…
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 9th October 2018, 23:07
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,604
Larry deZeng will become famous soon enoughLarry deZeng will become famous soon enough
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

ZhekaB -

44 Fw 190 3 Einsätze
[44 Fw 190s dispatched on a total of 3 operations or missions.]

Eingesetze Schlachtflugze 76
(A total of 76 ground-attack aircraft sorties were dispatched.]

If I understand your question correctly, there were no Fw 190s in either JG 51 or JG 52 in October 1944. They were equipped with the Bf 109 G-6, although Geschwaderstab JG 52 also had a couple of Bf 109 G-14s. This is according to the Luftwaffe document:
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, 3.42 - 12.44.

L.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 9th October 2018, 23:27
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Thank you Larry, the first question is clear.
The second question was about Stabsstaffel on Fw 190 (mentioned in document) which made 24 sorties on 8 missions to cover sea district of Memel. So it is suposed that they were from JG stabstaffel? From which one it could be? I dont know any on Fw 190 in that region that period of time. Could they be from SG? Do schlachtgrupp execute cover or escort missions?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 9th October 2018, 23:34
kalender1973 kalender1973 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 184
kalender1973 is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhekaB View Post
[color=black][font=&quot]
And second question is what stabsstaffel on Fw 190 could be meant (between III./ JG 51 and III./ JG 52). JG 52’s stakas were flying Bf 109 I believ…
Stabstaffel JG51 used the FW190

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg51.html

Do not confused with Stab/JG51
__________________
Igor
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10th October 2018, 00:02
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is online now
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,604
Larry deZeng will become famous soon enoughLarry deZeng will become famous soon enough
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944



Sorry! I did not scroll down far enough.

https://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/bstjg51.html

L.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10th October 2018, 00:23
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

So did I ))
Thank you kalender
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 28th August 2019, 21:22
ZhekaB ZhekaB is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 85
ZhekaB is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Updating information of German OOB on 16-27 october 1944 in East Prussian Air Battle:
Fighters:

1. Stab/JG52 (21.10. - Jurgenfelde) - Bf 109G-6, Bf 109G-6/U4, Bf 109G-14

2. I./JG52 (14.10. - Ebenrode or Lobellen?) - Bf 109G-6, Bf 109G-6/U4, Bf 109G-14
3. III./JG52 (16.10. - Jurgenfelde or Trahkennen?) - Bf 109G-6, Bf 109G-6/U4, Bf 109G-14
4. Stab/JG 51 (01.10.? - ?) - Bf 109G-6, Bf 109G-14
5. Stabsstafel/JG51 (01.10.? - ?) - Fw 190A-8

6. I./JG51 (01.10.? - Lobellen) - Bf 109G-6, Bf 109G-6/U4, Bf 109G-14
7. III./JG51 (01.10.? - Huttenfelde) - Bf 109G-6, Bf 109G-6/U4, Bf 109G-14


Schlachtflugzuege:
1. II./SG1 (16.10. - Gerdoen) - Fw 190F-8

2. Stab/SG4 (01.10. - Insterburg) - Fw 190F-8
3. I./SG4 (15.10.? - Insterburg) - Fw 190A/F/G
4. II./SG4 (08.10.? - Huttenfelde) - Fw 190F-8
5. III./SG4 (18.10.? - Insterburg) - Fw 190F-8
6. II./SG77 (06.10. - Gerdoen) (? two staffels?) - Fw 190F-8
7. 10.(Pz)./SG1 (08.10.? - Huttenfelde) - Ju 87D-5, Ju 87G-2

8. 10.(Pz)./SG3 (03.10.? - Huttenfelde)- Ju 87D-5, Ju 87G-2
9. Stab IV./SG9 (??.10. - Jurgenfelde) - Hs 129 B-2

10. 13./SG9 (??.10. -Jurgenfelde) - Hs 129 B-2


Recon:
1. 2./NAGr8 (?? - Bielce) - Bf 109G-8
2. 2./NAGr4 (?? - Lyck) - Bf 109G-8
3. 2./NAgr5 (?? - Lyck) - Bf 109G-8


Bombers:
1. 14.(Eis)./KG3 (Graudenz) - Ju 88C - looks like hadn't flew in October

2. 14.(Eis)./KG55 (Gutenfeld) - He 111H-16 - looks like hadn't flew in October

Also there is some possibility of presence of next verbandts:

1. Stab/SG3 (possible)

2. I.,II.,III./SG3 (there is low possibility, but they moved to East Prussia in the end of October)


Number of a\c during the battle is very difficult to identify, just on the beginning of the month.

Last edited by ZhekaB; 28th August 2019 at 22:25.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 3rd January 2022, 12:58
Courtois Laurent Courtois Laurent is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 143
Courtois Laurent is on a distinguished road
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Happy New Year everyone,

I am going to open a post on the subject allies where I will put all the information that can be found in the Russian archives concerning air combat. I hope that the Luftwaffe specialists will find theirs there.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 3rd January 2022, 22:05
Rottler Rottler is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Ludwigshafen, Germany
Posts: 1,215
Rottler will become famous soon enough
Re: Air battle over East Prussia in October 1944

Hello ZhekaB,

to your post #12:
with regard to ….In attached doc, "Eingesetze Shlachtflufzeuge 76"….. the question arises, what is the exact wording?
"Eingesetzte Schlachtflugzeuge 76" (means 76 ground-attack aircraft were dispatched, not 76 sorties) or
"Einsätze Schlachtflugzeuge 76" (means there were 76 sorties of ground-attack aircraft).

Regards
Leo
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web (new version) Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 66 12th May 2020 14:14
RAF and RAAF ORBs available on the Web Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 43 23rd October 2015 15:46
National Archives Kew David P. Williams Allied and Soviet Air Forces 17 4th June 2010 02:44
8th Air Force raid on 7 October 1944 Laurent Rizzotti Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 27th September 2006 18:55
Luftwaffe Aces KIA in Normandy in 1944 Christer Bergström Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 35 13th August 2005 22:10


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 14:01.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net