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  #1  
Old 12th June 2006, 19:16
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

I am trying to figure out how large share of the Bf 109s that were of the E-1 model during the Battle of Britain.

Based on loss lists, I get the impression that at least one-fourth - maybe even as much as one-third - of all Bf 109s in the combat units at the English Channel were of the early E-1 model throughout the BoB. This assumption is reinfor4ced through the fact that although production of Bf 109 E-1 ceased in August 1940, no less than 100 of the 323 Bf 109s which were delivered to the combat units at the English Channel through September 1940 were of the early E-1 model. (Source: Prien et al, "Die Jagdfliegerverbände", Teil 4/II, p. 427.)

It would be most appreciated if anyone has access to figures for the numbers of Bf 109 E-1s in service with frontline units at various stages during the Battle of Britain.
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Old 14th June 2006, 14:09
RT RT is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Based on the losses, any damage, total 1100 bf109, from 1.july till 31.dec.40

E /to check after with wn/ 85
E-1 356
E-2.. 3
E-3 63
E-4 521
E-7 54
F-1 4

from 1.july to 15.sept.
E 58
E-1 200
E-3 63
E-4 270
E-7 13


RT
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  #3  
Old 14th June 2006, 16:33
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Horst Kube Horst Kube is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Quote:
Originally Posted by RT
Based on the losses, any damage, total 1100 bf109, from 1.july till 31.dec.40

E /to check after with wn/ 85
E-1 356
E-2.. 3
E-3 63
E-4 521
E-7 54
F-1 4

from 1.july to 15.sept.
E 58
E-1 200
E-3 63
E-4 270
E-7 13

RT, excuse me, I doubt the number of 1,100 Me 109/Bf's losses during July and December 1940. On which (presumptions) are that infos based on?

And can you please clarify the the numbers of total losses and the nos. of damages?

Cheers, Horst
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Old 14th June 2006, 18:00
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

RT, yes, those figures are more or less in line with my material.

But to return to the main issue: It would be most appreciated if anyone has access to figures for the numbers of Bf 109 E-1s in service with frontline units at various stages during the Battle of Britain.
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Old 14th June 2006, 18:15
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Unfortunately all the unit equipment sheets i have seen so far do not detail the subtype of the aircraft in use.
Another pitfall is the conversion of E-1s to E-3/E-4s standard, i'm not so certain all reported E-1s losses were of un-upgraded a/c, it's highly possible that already upgraded E-1s had been reported as E-1 rather than E-4.
I firmly believe that only detailled unit equipment sheets would provide an answer but as i said previously i'm still to see any.
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Old 14th June 2006, 18:39
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Quote:
Unfortunately all the unit equipment sheets i have seen so far do not detail the subtype of the aircraft in use.
Yes, that is the main reason why we have to ask ourselves this question.

Quote:
Another pitfall is the conversion of E-1s to E-3/E-4s standard, i'm not so certain all reported E-1s losses were of un-upgraded a/c, it's highly possible that already upgraded E-1s had been reported as E-1 rather than E-4.
Yes, I too have given that theory a thought. However, that would have been against regulations, so even if this might be part of an explanation, I don't think it was too common.

For the period 1 July - 31 October 1940, the list of individual aircraft losses and casualty reports from the returns to the Generalquartiermeister consists of a total of 1 026 Bf 109 E. Of those, 138 are reported as simply "109 E". The number of specified aircraft subtypes are divided as follows:

Bf 109 E-1: 337
Bf 109 E-2: 2
Bf 109 E-3: 59
Bf 109 E-4: 489
Bf 109 E-7: 60


Quote:
I firmly believe that only detailled unit equipment sheets would provide an answer but as i said previously i'm still to see any.
Of course. Until then, I think we are left to assume that at least one-fourth - maybe even as much as one-third - of all Bf 109s in the combat units at the English Channel were of the early E-1 model throughout the BoB. Maybe even more: Of the 888 "specified subtypes" above, 38 % were E-1s.

BTW - in my book on the Battle of Britain (which I just finished writing!), there will be detailed lists of every single aircraft loss on both sides during ther period 1 July - 31 October 1940. (Those lists will add much new to the lists previously published in "The BoB Then & Now, Mk V".) The book is scheduled to be published 3rd quarter 2006 - first in a Swedish edition, then probably in an English edition.
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  #7  
Old 14th June 2006, 18:59
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

The 25% to 33% ratio seems reasonable to me given the data i have at hands. And it is roughly the ratio of E-1 produced compared to the whole Emil production which is about 33% (including E-1/B).

Good news about the book, time for me to put my rusty Swedish to good use
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Old 14th June 2006, 19:15
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
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Christer Bergström
Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Okay, breaking the linguistical rules here - time for a lesson in Swedish:

Pratar du ärans och hjältarnas språk, svenska, olefebvre?

(Translation into English: "Do you speak the language of honour and heroes, Swedish, olefebvre?")

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  #9  
Old 14th June 2006, 22:31
olefebvre olefebvre is offline
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olefebvre
Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Actually i have not too much trouble reading it, but speaking and writing is out of my league. I'm able to understand a book like Nödlandning for instance, but of course with some troubles.
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  #10  
Old 14th June 2006, 23:27
RT RT is offline
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Re: Bf 109 E-1s during the Battle of Britain

Horst,

Losses come from Gen.verl.meld. nd break down is as follow,

under 50 % 280
50 % to 98 % /sorry no losses at 99 %/ 170
100 % 600

balance unknown % but gen ger.

to give truth to these figures the pilots killed or v.misst are ...160 killed+ 330 missing

E-1, we could find very late with LG2/SG1, nd in march/april 41 still in front line, against britain with JG51, JG54, JG3, last 12 nov. with JG54, in Siverskaya..
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