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Pre-WW2 Military and Naval Aviation Please use this forum to discuss Military and Naval Aviation before the Second World War.

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  #1  
Old 6th March 2019, 11:16
focusfocus focusfocus is offline
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Oesau's victories in Spain

Hello all

I have a question that will seem STRANGE to some,of the Oesau "abschusse"in Spain!

What is the exact number of these?
9 (Ring/Ries) but with 2 (20/07/38 and 27/07/38) not approved?

10(David Johnston in the new book:German eagles in Spanish Skies....GREAT BOOK with pictures!"whaou" and discovery (for me) of Bf.109 A!!...credited with "abschusse".

6 (according to the list established by Georg Fleischmann (KIA on 30/04/40)....a concerned witness of the time?

The Fleischmann's list puts some doubts in doubt.

Michel
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Old 6th March 2019, 11:26
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Would be grateful for any corrections and additions:





15.7.38

I-15 ("Curtiss")
Day's losses include Felipe Cirujeda Esteve of 1a Esc, Grupo 26; Jose Redondo of 1a Esc apparently by collision with Bf109; one I-15 lost to a collision with an I-16 (pilot of I-16 named Pastor)

17.7.38
I-15 ("Curtiss")
2a Esc, Grupo 26 lost Felipe Barroso Calvo KIA (exploded in mid-air, attributed to Moelders), 2 other pilots baled out WIA

18.7.38
I-16 "Rata"
Alcublas area, Spain
Nationalist forces claimed 5 or 6 I-16s and 5 I-15s this date. Actual losses were 3 I-16s and 2 I-15s. The I-16s lost include those of Vicente Yuste and pilot Belmonte (both 3a Esc and KIA) plus Andres Fierro baled out safely. I-15 losses include Felipe Alonso Tebar (Tobar?) fate not listed and Juan Diaz Labella KIA. Grigorii Sergeevich Nevgerskii also KIA this date against CR-32s and Bf109s

20.7.38
I-15 ("Curtiss")
Grupo 26 and other units. From 17.7.38 to 23.7.38 there were nine I-16s lost and seven I-15s

27.7.38
SB-2
Grupo 12 or Grupo 24

15.8.38
I-15 ("Curtiss")
Tivisa
Grupo 26. Two losses this date so likely a legitimate victory. Includes CM-201 of 3a Esc, Eduardo Fernandez Prada shot down in flames (other claim by Gustav Kuell)
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Old 6th March 2019, 15:40
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Hi Nick

According Georg Fleischmann

15/07/38
1 Curtis "Sagunto/Valencia

17/07/38
1 Curtis "Segorbe"

18/07/38
1 Curtis "Segorbe"

15/08/38
1 Curtis "Tivissa"

20/08/38
1 Rata "Venta de Camposines"!

15/10/38
1 Rata "Mola"

03/11/38
1 Rata "Capsanos"!

Nothing about claims of 20/07/38 and 27/07/38 (Karl Ries/Hans Ring)

Michel
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Old 6th March 2019, 16:06
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Hello Michel,
Have you this recent mag: http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=53330
Maybe your question is regarding this very issue, I have not yet read it and have no idea what is "real score" is, but I can have a look if you want.
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Old 6th March 2019, 17:22
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Thanks,if you can inform me about the article in ACE 10

Michel
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Old 6th March 2019, 20:55
Arsenal VG-33 Arsenal VG-33 is offline
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Hello,

Comparing Oesau's claims and russian archives we'v got for 9 claims, 7 of them confirmed from german side:

2 individual kills*
5 shared kills
2 unconfirmed claims (no republican losses at all)

* for the moment, since we still do not have all italian or spanish francoist's claims.
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Old 7th March 2019, 08:48
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Alfred.MONZAT Alfred.MONZAT is offline
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Thanks,if you can inform me about the article in ACE 10
15 July 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
17 July 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
18 July 1938 - Rata (I-16)
23 July 1938 - Rata (I-16) - Unconfirmed
15 August 1938 - Curtiss (I-15)
20 August 1938 - Rata (I-16)
15 October 1938 - ?
3 November 1938 - "YP-36"

So 7 confirmed and one unconfirmed based on Walter Oesau's personnal diary and some Legion Condor papers.
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Old 7th March 2019, 15:08
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

That fits with the list of Fleischmann who is contemporary.

Parenthesis,for those interested,at least 40 "abschusse" were claimed with Bf.109 A (top scorer Boddem)...a discovery and a surprise for me.

Michel
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Old 8th March 2019, 10:55
Nick Hector Nick Hector is offline
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Quote:
Originally Posted by focusfocus View Post
Hi Nick

According Georg Fleischmann

15/07/38
1 Curtis "Sagunto/Valencia

17/07/38
1 Curtis "Segorbe"

18/07/38
1 Curtis "Segorbe"

15/08/38
1 Curtis "Tivissa"

20/08/38
1 Rata "Venta de Camposines"!

15/10/38
1 Rata "Mola"

03/11/38
1 Rata "Capsanos"!

Nothing about claims of 20/07/38 and 27/07/38 (Karl Ries/Hans Ring)

Michel

Michel,

Many thanks. Will update my database over the weekend
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Old 8th March 2019, 16:19
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Re: Oesau's victories in Spain

Hi,

only litle correction:

15/08/38
1 Curtis "Tivissa" in Catalan language in or Tivisa in Spanish language


03/11/38
1 Rata "Capsanos"!
Capçanes in Catalan language or Capsanes in Spanish language

maybe not helps but can you find the two versions...

great threat!
regards
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