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  #11  
Old 22nd April 2019, 15:49
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

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I cannot answer for either Larry or Douglas but it would be interesting to hear their side of things.
Hi Stig -

Since Doug and I wrote our books, new documents have appeared such as the early HW 5 intercepts that more or less cover the campaign in France and the Low Countries. Also, we never did anything with Flugbucher ("u" with Umlaut) because trying to gain access to thousands of those for all of the Kampf-, Sturz- and Schlacht- units would have been an impossible and prohibitively expensive chore. Nor did we interview any of the participants. So there are gaps and errors in our books, which were never intended to be definitive studies but rather intermediate-level capsule histories of the various units. As it was, it took me 25 years to go through all of the NARA microfilm, PRO documents, ULTRA DEFE 3 microfilm, BA-MA Signaturen and other documents as well as hundreds of books and articles that I used. So if Mr. INM@RLM has found some fresh material in this new book that I didn't know about, then I think that's great. I am grateful that the authors of this new book were able to dig deeper and clear up some of our omissions and mistakes.

L.
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  #12  
Old 23rd April 2019, 10:05
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Stig, you were right to be cautious.
There are two French communes named Barly: Barly (Barly, 80600, Somme halfway between Abbeville and Arras, so about 40 km from each) and Barly (Barly, 62810, Pas-de Calais further east well towards Arras). However, during the BoB both were always in the Luftflotte 2 area.
Barly, 62810, Somme is I believe the one with the BoB Feldflugplatz, the same Barly that was apparently used by III./ZG 26 from around early Aug until Nov-40.
Along with Yvrench (I./ZG 26) and Crécy-en-Ponthieu (II./ZG 26), this Barly is between the rivers Somme (to the south) and the Canche (on the north), all these airfields lying close to the valley of the River Authie running between the two boundary rivers. This looks an entirely logical grouping for a full ZG deployment, using Absprungplätze nearer the coast to actually launch missions.
The De Zeng Airfields Listing for France gives the Barly, 62810, Pas-de Calais location ("landing ground in NE France 17 km W of Arras"). In the context of the other ZG 26 airfields of this period that looks like it needs adjusting. Perhaps there is some archaeological evidence to throw definitive light on this?
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  #13  
Old 23rd April 2019, 13:02
Stig Jarlevik Stig Jarlevik is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Thanks Guys

When googling Barly it is the 62810 which gets picked up (at least initially), but both places are still far off from Ouilly.
Reason I did check was to see if they were close enough to have been used simulataneously, but that is simply not realistic.

With regard to the two Barly places, not a clue which is the correct one.

Cheers
Stig
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  #14  
Old 23rd April 2019, 15:17
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Research Colleagues,

Since the "Barly" issue has become something of a thorn, I went back and checked my airfield sources for France, which are extensive thanks to the voluminous wartime output of the A.I.2(b) section of the British Air Ministry. That section's periodic gazetteer of all airfields, landing grounds and seaplane stations, both past and present, in North and West France, runs to 38 pages with 1,178 listings and is dated 1 September 1943. There are another 380 listings for Vichy France. There is only one (1) Barly, a "Former L.G.", and this is at the coordinates and location that I give in my monograph on the Michael Holm website. With all the sources available to A.I.2(b) - frequent aerial photo reconnaissance, numerous POW interrogations, ULTRA intercepts, intelligence reports from the French resistance and M.I.9, etc. - I think the odds of them having the wrong Barly is probably quite remote; possible but remote.

L.
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  #15  
Old 23rd April 2019, 23:16
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Larry, Thank you VERY much for rechecking this and giving us a clear source reference.
From what you found it is very clear that A.I.2(b) treated Feldflugplatz Barly as located near the Barly further to the east and nearer to Arras. Yes, the RAF may well have flown regular (quarterly?) PR coverages of that site to confirm there was no activity.

For the RAF this was only ever a "Former L.G." (RAF parlance), so there could be more than one way of credibly joining up the same set of dots.

If the original reference to the use of Barly as an airfield came from an Ultra text it would be a toss-up as to whether the RAF associated that with the correct Barly. PR coverage of an area where there never had been an airfield would consistently continue to show no signs of an airfield. Ditto intelligence from the French resistance. I'd doubt that a POW interrogation post-1940 would yield a precise a location: the POW would only know that there had been a Barly in use once upon a time. Unless he was well familiar with a very good set of French maps he wouldn't even be aware that there might be two Barlys set pretty close together.

Basing III./ZG 26 twenty km further east away from the other two Gruppen looks imo a lower probability than a closer grouping, whilst the possibility of the RAF associating the reference to a former temporary airfield with the wrong Barly looks about even stevens to me.
Undoubtedly the Luftwaffe knew which Barly they used. My suggestion is we keep an open mind for now, and wait for a Luftwaffe deployment map marked with Feldflugplatz Barly to surface - or an equivalent definitive contemporary Lw documentary reference with a precise location.
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  #16  
Old 24th April 2019, 17:18
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

********BREAKING NEWS********

I just found a 1941 correction in the A.I.3.(b)/AirMin material. The correct coordinates for the REAL Barly are:

50 11 35 N 2 16 40 E
That's 920 meters SSE of Barly village center, and
6 km NW of Doullens town center.


The revised, corrected and subsequently amended entry also says the Germans made minor improvements to this LG at the beginning of 1942 and then obstructed it. In 1943, they handed it over to the local authorities for cultivation.

Hopefully, we now have a resolution, and for me, redemption!

L.
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  #17  
Old 25th April 2019, 00:23
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Larry, A really brilliant find. BIG THANK YOU for digging this out - I lift my hat to you. You were always forgiven and you are definitely redeemed, and, YES, now we do definitely have a conclusive resolution.

Please now also forgive me in turn for pointing out that it is Barly, 80600, Somme - the one further west halfway between Arras and Abbeville - that is "6 km NW of Doullens town center", and not the Barly, 62810, Pas-de Calais that is further east, nearer to Arras and listed as the Barly airfield location in the current edition of your France Airfield list.

So the RAF realised there was a duplicate place name and that they had previously selected the wrong Barly as the site of the Lw Feldflugplatz. The ZG 26 bases for the BoB then were indeed all clustered together nearer the coast. You will I'm sure be updating the airfield listing. These are now an esential reference tool, and little by little will be brought closer to perfection.

In summary:
Barly, 62810, Pas-de Calais is the location currently shown in the airfield listing as 50 15 02 N – 02 32 49 E
Barly, 80600, Somme is what should now be substituted with 50 11 35 - N 02 16 40 E
The difference between the 32 and the 16 in the latitude means the first is about 18 miles further to the east.

Thank you VERY much for your help in resolving this little niggle.
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  #18  
Old 25th April 2019, 23:51
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Also of possible interest:

Included in the Forward of this title is some general guidance on where to look in the BA-MA for material covering the St.G. & Sch.G./S.G.

This is given in two footnotes:

Zu den Sturzkampfgeschwadern bwz. Schlachtgeschwadern siehe den Bestand des Bundesarchivs RL 10/7. Bestand StG1 = RL 10/7.1; StG 3 / SchG 3 = RL 10/7.5; I./StG 76 = RL 10/7.9 sowie RL 2 III, RL 4, RL 19, RL 20, RL 22 und RL 24. (Footnote #2 - abbreviations are exactly as given in the original text)

Zur Aufstellung der Luftwaffenverbände siehe auch: Bundesarchiv Bestand u.a. RL-2-III-47 Band 2, RL-2-III-51 Band 6, RL-III-52 Band 7, RL-2-III-53 Band 8. (Footnote #4)
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  #19  
Old 26th April 2019, 10:02
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Here's something relating to St.G 3 from the July 1940 ULTRA that I have, but it doesn't answer the airfield question!
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  #20  
Old 29th April 2019, 10:50
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: Der Einsatz deutscher Sturzkampfgruppen gegen Polen,Frankreich und England 1939 und 1940

Many thanks for digging out that snippet, Nick.


It looks entirely consistent with what Larry has listed very nicely in his Airfields France for Boulogne-Le Portel:
"Boulogne – Le Portel (FR) (a.k.a. Boulogne-Alprech, Tegatte?) (50 41 45 N – 01 34 20 E)
General: landing ground on the Channel coast in NE France 4 km SW of Boulogne and 1.6 km S of Le Portel. History: Le Portel was a civil airport that began operations at the end of July 1939. After the Luftwaffe took it over in Jun 40, they used it as a Stuka field for staging attacks on Channel shipping and targets along England’s south coast that began in July 1940. Existing infrastructure was used and there was no new construction by the Luftwaffe. The airfield was largely abandoned after May 1941.

Surface and Dimensions: a firm and well-drained grass surface with two grass runways in operation, one 760 meters (830 yards) and the other 500 meters (550 yards) in length. Fuel and Ammunition: refueling points were on the W and S boundaries. Infrastructure: there was 1 small hangar with a paved apron on the N boundary. Personnel were generally billeted in the village of La Salle, less than 1 km E of the landing ground. The nearest rail connection was in Le Portel. Dispersal: the 2 dispersals, Northeast and Southeast, had a total of 3 covered and 4 open aircraft shelters. Defenses: protected by 8 heavy Flak and 15 light positions during 1940-41."


The only oddity is this is FK VIII (under Lfl 3 on 9-July-40) and I./St.G. 3 (part of FK VIII and as this fragment confirms redesignated from I./St.G. 76) setting up a forward operating airfield in the Luftflotte 2 area. An insight into the flexibility the Luftwaffe planned into their operations at this time.

Last edited by INM@RLM; 29th April 2019 at 10:51. Reason: typo
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