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  #1  
Old 19th June 2008, 17:43
Blue Devil Blue Devil is offline
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High Scoring 109

Morning all! I know that, given the state of the records and all, this one might be kind of hard to answer, but I figured it wouldn't hurt to ask!

Does anyone know what the highest scoring Bf 109 airframe was? I'm kinda guessing it was one of Hartmann's, but which (or which not?)

Thanks for any help!

Michael
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  #2  
Old 19th June 2008, 20:23
Martti Kujansuu Martti Kujansuu is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

Finnish Bf-109G-2 "MT-201" (W.Nr 14718) scored 32,5 confirmed aerial victories between May 1943 and September 1944. Surely there must be German aeroframes with more (confirmed) kills?
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Old 19th June 2008, 21:27
ChrisS ChrisS is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

I think Martti is talking about preserved or surviving Bf 109's.

That being the case what about Bf-109 F-4 Trop W.Nr 10132 of 6./JG5 flown by Hptm Horst Cargnico now in the National Aviation Museum in Ottawa, Canada. I don't know how many of his victories were achieved in this plane but of all the Bf-109 survivors this surely can be the only other contender.

Perhaps an expert on Cargnico can help?

Cheers

Chris

Last edited by ChrisS; 19th June 2008 at 21:31. Reason: unfeasably large wobbly bosoms
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Old 19th June 2008, 22:31
Blue Devil Blue Devil is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

Well, THAT'S interesting information, thanks guys!

I am looking for high scoring over all, however, not just surviving.

Still, that's pretty cool! Thanks again!

Michael
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  #5  
Old 19th June 2008, 23:02
Martti Kujansuu Martti Kujansuu is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisS View Post
I think Martti is talking about preserved or surviving Bf 109's.
No. I'm talking the best Finnish Bf-109 with most kills. For example MT-452 preserved at Utti has only nine kills.
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Old 19th June 2008, 23:19
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

ChrisS

There is photos of Bf109F-4/Z 10132 coded >> of II/JG5 which had 50 victories painted on the fin. Photos were taken first week in August 1942 after Carganicos return with his 50th victory. Photos of it taxying, the fin and pilots of II/JG5. Part of the set was published in Eric mombeeks book on JG5. We also know when CD+LZ (Stkz) as she was known traveled through Finland in May 1942. Carganico operated 10132 as his main aircraft during the summer but also 10256.

It was 1997 or so but I thing we established that 10132 probably had in the region of 15 odd victories on this plane during June, July and August 1942. (He had 27 victories up to September 1941). end of 1941, early 1942 was lean for Carganico I recall. 10132 was lost on the 12th August 1942 and belly landed in Motowski Buch.

Probably the most historic (victories wise) German aircraft in existence.

Shame his full victory list is not known.

regards

MarkS

regards
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  #7  
Old 20th June 2008, 11:08
ChrisS ChrisS is offline
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Smile Re: High Scoring 109

Thanks Mark for that information!
I recall that when 10132 was found, British Museums, including the IWM, were given the opportunity of buying it. Unbelievably the idiots turned down the vendors offer, thus the UK lost the chance of obtaining the one of the most important Warbird discoveries in recent years!

.......................................

Michael, I think your question is a really interesting one. As far as I am aware nobody has done research on the this topic. I must say the thought of having a list of the top scoring aircraft would be an interesting one.

Cheers

Chris

Last edited by ChrisS; 20th June 2008 at 11:10. Reason: my backs aching and I need a fart
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Old 20th June 2008, 13:34
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

A still taken from a movie camera of the Ottawa F-4 of Carganicos.


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Old 20th June 2008, 14:02
markjsheppard markjsheppard is offline
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Re: High Scoring 109

ChrisS

Yes it was offered to Hendon to try and ensure that Black 6 continued to fly. Thought Carganico's Bf109 (1942) with the Hamden from Russia (1942) would have been a nice setting.

They were ademant they wanted Black 6 ground and in there museum.

Also seen photos of the aircraft recovered in the early 1980's which I have seen.

Trying to get the Canadian museum to paint on the 50 victory markings though not all the dates are known. (The original rudder had been cut off during or after WWII along with the Micky mouse and four leaf clover. Would love to find those!

Trying to get copies of the recovery photos and would do an article update.

regards

Mark

PS See you are in Oxford. Just down the river in Abingdon!
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  #10  
Old 20th June 2008, 15:57
John Beaman John Beaman is online now
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Re: High Scoring 109

I would offer two of Marseille's 109Fs. His first known one was #8693 which had at least 52 marks. We do not know if all these claims were made using this machine.

His last known F, #8673, we now know he apparently ferried back to Africa after his leave and used until he received a G-2. We think he scored at least 57 if he flew it on all missions where he made claims.

Indeed, such men flew many machines and it might be doubtful if any airframe was used for all missions where claims were made. The only real way to know is to have the pilot's FB.
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