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Old 12th March 2011, 23:33
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Hi, guys:
A couple of years ago, when I readed the memoirs of Aleksandrin Pokryshkin in Spanish (my mother tongue), found them that vivd, that I began to dream about the possibility of cross-referencing his victories. Such desire was reinforced by my travel for Russia in January this year, when I bought "Познать себя в бою" (Poznat' sebya v Boyu = Know yourself in combat) in a library in Nizhnyy Novgorod. This rainy afternoon I feel the desire to begin that task, sharing with you my findings (when I am fully sure), and showing which German losses I consider possible candidates of being Pokryshkin's preys, and you could correct me if I am wrong or add more information.
Besides his memories, I took his claims from:
-Stalinovi Sokoli by Tomas Polak y Christopher Shores.
-Asy Velikoy Otechestvennoy Voyny. Samye rezultativnye liotchiki 1941-1945 gg by Mijail Bykov.
Besides these, I added five more that he scored in 1942 while flying the Yak-1 but which were not officially credited (I deduced the dates from his memoirs and the German loss archives)

I will begin with his victories in 1941, when he flew the MiG-3 with the 55 IAP, and his victories in 1942, when he flew the Yak-1, with the already redesignated 16 GIAP:

* 23.06.1941 Bf.109.
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109E-7 W.Nr. 4134 Uffz. Hans Illner (MIA) 6./JG 77. According to the LW, by AAA.
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5699 Desconocida (50% damage) II./JG 3.
* 24.06.1941 Bf.109
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 6746 Obfw. Erwin Kortlepel 4./JG 3. Experte with 17 victorias.
- Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5477 Obltn. Eberhard Bock Staffelkapitan 3./JG 3 Experte with 29 victories, According to the LW, by AAA.
* 26.06.1941 Hs.126, PZL P.24 and Bf.109 in Yassy-Stefaneshtyi
Posible candidates:
-Hs.126 W.Nr. 3106 Obltn. Wilhelm Mayer + 1 KIAs 8.(H)/32.
-Hs.126 W.Nr. 3189 Uffz. Pantalon Weberle (MIA) + 1 WIA 5.(H)/21.
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 6741 Unknown (65% written off) I./JG 3 (Dup? Place according to LW)
* 27.06.1941 Bf.109 en Belcy and Ju.88 in Kishinyev
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5719 Uffz. Ernst Winkler 4./JG 3 Belcy (Grubischev? )
-Ju.88A-4 W.Nr 7131 Uffz. Kurt Engel + 3 KIAs 4./KG 77
-Ju.88A-5 W.Nr. 2396 Ltn. Albrecht Siegfried + 3 4./KG 77
* 2.07.1941 Bf.109 Belcy
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5472 Obltn. Helmut Meckel (25% dañ) Staffelkapitan 2./JG 3 Belcy (Grubischev? Según LW x accidente) Experte with 7 victories then, he would claim 25.
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 8249 Unknown III./JG 3 (Volonski? Place according to LW)
* 5.07.1941 Hs.126 S de Belcy
* 5.10.1941 Bf.109 Zaporozhe,
* 9.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13421 Unknown 15.(Kroat)/JG 52.
* 17.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13488 Uffz. Kurt Keiser (KIA) 7./JG 52.
* 17.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13435 Fw. Hans Dammers 7./JG 52. Experte with 113 victories.
* 20.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13476 Ltn. Fritz Brückmann (KIA) 9./JG 52 Experte with 30 victories.
* 28.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13436 Potpukovnik Franjo Dzal Staffelkapitan 15.(Kroat)/JG 52. Experte with 16 victories
* 1.08.1942 Ju.88A-4 W.Nr. 144092 Obfw. Helmut Grubert + 3 KIAs III./LG 1 Kropotkin

* 2.08.1942 Bf.110D-4 W.Nr. 2262 Obltn. Walter Kôhler + 1 MIAs 7.(H)/LG 2 Kropotkin

Text in red = The Luftwaffe did not credit the loss to air combat.
Text in blue = Victories not officially credited.

Please if you detect mistakes, or realize that the units I mention where not deployed in the area where fought Pokryshkin, correct my mistakes.
Kind regards,
Diego
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Old 12th March 2011, 23:37
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

I repeat the post marking in black the opponents of Pokryshkin who were aces:
* 23.06.1941 Bf.109.
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109E-7 W.Nr. 4134 Uffz. Hans Illner (MIA) 6./JG 77. According to the LW, by AAA.
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5699 Desconocida (50% damage) II./JG 3.
* 24.06.1941 Bf.109
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 6746 Obfw. Erwin Kortlepel 4./JG 3. Experte with 17 victorias.
- Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5477 Obltn. Eberhard Bock Staffelkapitan 3./JG 3 Experte with 29 victories, According to the LW, by AAA.
* 26.06.1941 Hs.126, PZL P.24 and Bf.109 in Yassy-Stefaneshtyi
Posible candidates:
-Hs.126 W.Nr. 3106 Obltn. Wilhelm Mayer + 1 KIAs 8.(H)/32.
-Hs.126 W.Nr. 3189 Uffz. Pantalon Weberle (MIA) + 1 WIA 5.(H)/21.
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 6741 Unknown (65% written off) I./JG 3 (Dup? Place according to LW)
* 27.06.1941 Bf.109 en Belcy and Ju.88 in Kishinyev
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5719 Uffz. Ernst Winkler 4./JG 3 Belcy (Grubischev? )
-Ju.88A-4 W.Nr 7131 Uffz. Kurt Engel + 3 KIAs 4./KG 77
-Ju.88A-5 W.Nr. 2396 Ltn. Albrecht Siegfried + 3 4./KG 77
* 2.07.1941 Bf.109 Belcy
Posible candidates:
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 5472 Obltn. Helmut Meckel (25% dañ) Staffelkapitan 2./JG 3 Belcy (Grubischev? Según LW x accidente) Experte with 7 victories then, he would claim 25.
-Bf.109F-2 W.Nr. 8249 Unknown III./JG 3 (Volonski? Place according to LW)
* 5.07.1941 Hs.126 S de Belcy
* 5.10.1941 Bf.109 Zaporozhe,
* 9.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13421 Unknown 15.(Kroat)/JG 52.
* 17.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13488 Uffz. Kurt Keiser (KIA) 7./JG 52.
* 17.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13435 Fw. Hans Dammers 7./JG 52. Experte with 113 victories.
* 20.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13476 Ltn. Fritz Brückmann (KIA) 9./JG 52 Experte with 30 victories.
* 28.07.1942 Bf.109G-2 W.Nr. 13436 Potpukovnik Franjo Dzal Staffelkapitan 15.(Kroat)/JG 52. Experte with 16 victories
* 1.08.1942 Ju.88A-4 W.Nr. 144092 Obfw. Helmut Grubert + 3 KIAs III./LG 1 Kropotkin

* 2.08.1942 Bf.110D-4 W.Nr. 2262 Obltn. Walter Kôhler + 1 MIAs 7.(H)/LG 2 Kropotkin

Text in red = The Luftwaffe did not credit the loss to air combat.
Text in blue = Victories not officially credited.

Once again: please if you detect mistakes, or realize that the units I mention where not deployed in the area where fought Pokryshkin, correct my mistakes.
Kind regards,
Diego
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Old 13th March 2011, 10:10
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Diego, for Pokryshkin's 1941 activity you may consult my book, 'From Barbarossa to Odessa', which gives a day-by-day account on the air activity of all sides on the Southern flank of the Eastern Front up to mid-October 1941.

Here is an excerpt regarding Pokryshkin (vol. 1, page 58): "3 July 1941. (...) At 0715, the still relatively unknown fighter pilot, St. lt. Alexander Pokryshkin, claimed his first official victory over a 'PZL-24' over Strasheni (...). No matches can be found in Rumanian documents and the ARR did not lose a single fighter aircraft that day."
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Old 13th March 2011, 12:49
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Monsieur Dénes Bérnad:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád View Post
Diego, for Pokryshkin's 1941 activity you may consult my book, 'From Barbarossa to Odessa', which gives a day-by-day account on the air activity of all sides on the Southern flank of the Eastern Front up to mid-October 1941.
Here is an excerpt regarding Pokryshkin (vol. 1, page 58): "3 July 1941. (...) At 0715, the still relatively unknown fighter pilot, St. lt. Alexander Pokryshkin, claimed his first official victory over a 'PZL-24' over Strasheni (...). No matches can be found in Rumanian documents and the ARR did not lose a single fighter aircraft that day."
Merci Beaucoup! (Unfortunatelly, this is almost everything, that I remember of my classes of French language during my secondary school)
I heard about your book, but I did not know if still was available. Bergstrom's Black Cross - Red Star. Volume 1: Barbarossa, for example, is imposible to be found and bought, simply is not available). I hope it is not the case with your book
Kind regards
Diego
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Old 13th March 2011, 15:53
Dénes Bernád Dénes Bernád is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Merci, Diego, mais je ne suis pas un Francois, mais un Hongrois.
This is also my highschool French, as its best.

Both volumes of my book are still available. Check out the publisher's site:
http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/fr...july-1941.html
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Old 13th March 2011, 17:42
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Dear Bernád:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dénes Bernád View Post
Merci, Diego, mais je ne suis pas un Francois, mais un Hongrois.
This is also my highschool French, as its best.
Upppsss!!! Aga! What a shame!! Your first and last names sounded French to me, and I always assumed (wrongly, evidently), that you was French. I should realize that your name and surname were not French but Hungarian!! Please forgive me.

Quote:
Both volumes of my book are still available. Check out the publisher's site:
http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/fr...july-1941.html
I already check it. I already added both volumes to my shopping list. Thank you very much!!!
I know that Pokryshkin's victories that I mentioned between 23 to 27 June 1941 were not officially credited to him because he claimed to shot them down in already German-held territory, or the official records of 55 IAP mentioning them were destroyed by the Russians themselves to prevent their capture by German forces.
So far, you see any serious mistake in the German units? AFAIK, JG 3 and 77, and KG 77 were deployed in that sector of the front, but I might be wrong.
Kind regards,
Diego
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Old 13th March 2011, 19:00
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Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Diego:

Look at this Discussion Board, there was a try to cross-check his claims:

http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?t=112150
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Old 13th March 2011, 19:05
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Uvazhaemyy Evgeniy: (Dear Evgeniy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evgeny Velichko View Post
Diego:
Look at this Discussion Board, there was a try to cross-check his claims:
http://reibert.info/forum/showthread.php?t=112150
Spasibo bol'shoe!!! Posmotriyu, i potom komentirovayu zdes' rezultatov
Beregi sebya, drug
Diego

(Thank you very much!! I'll take a look, and later I'll comment the results here Take care, friend
Diego)
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Old 16th March 2011, 12:48
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Hi
If right remeber, his "1-st" victory was own Su-2 shot down on 22.06.41, luckly crew had survived unharmed, this also counts.
He did not know, what he did shot at then.

Regrads,
mirekw

PS.
There is one big book printed in Russian in 2008, about Soviet aces in GPW (by "Bykow" or so?), there are a list of all his victores, but have not yet mached.

Some time ago had been printed a nice story about early period of 55. IAP (in 1941) by Russian author too. He wrote about Pokryschkin and Rechkalov competition in this unit too done according Russian archive. Somewhere should be on the net.

The books done by Bergstrom, Black Cross ... vol I (two edition) there are not good sources of information. Checking data from them and other sources (Russian and other) I have found too many fantasy and errors in them. But if you like fantasy of course it is very good books.

Books done by Denes Bernard and Dymitry Karlenko are much more usefull and credible sources for this period but ending in October 1941.
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Old 18th March 2011, 20:11
DiegoZampini DiegoZampini is offline
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Re: Trying to corroborate Aleksandr Pokryshkin's aerial victories

Mrek:
In first place, thanks for your oppinion, and also I apologyze that I answer you that late. I was extremely bussy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski View Post
Hi
If right remeber, his "1-st" victory was own Su-2 shot down on 22.06.41, luckly crew had survived unharmed, this also counts. He did not know, what he did shot at then.
Yes, I know about that incident. But I focused in his victories against the Axis aircraft, not about "friendly fire" cases.

Quote:
There is one big book printed in Russian in 2008, about Soviet aces in GPW (by "Bykow" or so?), there are a list of all his victores, but have not yet mached.
I asumme that you are talking about Mijail Bykov's book Asy Velikoy Otechesvennoy Voyny. Samie rezultativnye liotchiki 1941-1945 gg. I have that book. Thanks for the advance anyway

Quote:
Some time ago had been printed a nice story about early period of 55. IAP (in 1941) by Russian author too. He wrote about Pokryschkin and Rechkalov competition in this unit too done according Russian archive. Somewhere should be on the net.
If you remember the name of the book, please tell me.
Anyway, I have my doubts about that "competition". There is of course no doubt that the relationships between Pokryshkin and Rechkalov were tense and frequently bad, but I did not support the theory that Pokryshkin tried to stole kills to Rechkalov.

Quote:
The books done by Bergstrom, Black Cross ... vol I (two edition) there are not good sources of information. Checking data from them and other sources (Russian and other) I have found too many fantasy and errors in them. But if you like fantasy of course it is very good books.
Which errors did you find?
Furthermore, even when Bergstrom tries to show impartiality, I noticed a couple of situations where the Luftwaffe suffered heavy losses in the hands of VVS, but Bergstrom did not mention at all. It seems to me that Bergstrom overemphasize German victories.

Quote:
Books done by Denes Bernard and Dymitry Karlenko are much more usefull and credible sources for this period but ending in October 1941.
Thanks for the advice. I will try to buy it.
Kind regards,
Diego
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