Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 30th October 2013, 23:34
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 626
Richard T. Eger is an unknown quantity at this point
Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear All,

In another thread dealing with Berglern and the airfield at Erding, RolandF pointed me toward a photo in Wings of the Black Cross, Number Seven, page 2 that shows Me 262 mid/rear bare metal fuselages claimed to be at the airfield at Mühldorf. Photos on the next 3 pages are also claimed to be taken at this airfield, but it is specifically the one on page 2 that I would like confirmation about. There is a white tower in the background which might be a control tower or part of a church.

I suspect that the introductory remarks as they pertain to this photo are incorrect. While there was a carapace facility under construction at Mühldorf (Weingut I), it never went into service. Me 262 mid/rear fuselages were only worked on at 3 facilities, none of them anywhere near Mühldorf. Two were to the east. My suspicion is that the mid/rear fuselages seen in the photo were pulled off of a train headed west and dumped postwar at the airfield. Of course, if this isn't Mühldorf, then the story could be quite different. Thus, can anyone identify for sure where this photo was taken?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Regards,
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 31st October 2013, 11:34
RolandF RolandF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 863
RolandF is on a distinguished road
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear Richard,

a short info before you´ll get new info about Erding and KUNO...:
This photograph was definitely identified by me as being taken at Mühldorf-Mettenheim Fliegerhorst. The church tower is without doubt standing in Mettenheim village.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...ettenheim.jpeg
Here´s some additional info about the relationship between Fliegerhorst Mühldorf-Mettenheim, the adjacent concentration and forced labour camp and project Weingut:
http://muehldorf.mu.funpic.de/mettenheim.html

Regards

Roland
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 31st October 2013, 12:52
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 626
Richard T. Eger is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear RolandF,

Thank you for the confirmation regarding the location of this photo. I've looked through your second link and the closest I can come to anything suggesting Me 262 production in the area is the following:

"Im März und April 1945 musste das Strahler-Jagdgeschwader aufgrund der näherrückenden Front seine bisherigen Standorte aufgeben. Einer der neuen Standorte war Mettenheim, so dass dort kurz vor Kriegsende, auch das Strahlenflugzeug ,,Messerschmitt ME 262" stationiert war - jener Flugzeugtyp, der auch im Mühldorfer Hart hätte hergestellt werden sollen."

Would you please carefully translate this for me? I ran 2 machine translations but I'd like to get a completely nuanced translation. What I think it is trying to say about potential nearby Me 262 manufacture is given in future tense, not as an actual accomplished fact. Weingut I at Mühldorf was never completed or anything started therein and, even if it had been, Me 262 related manufacturing wasn't planned for this facility, but rather Weingut II.

Now, if I've missed whatever was supposed to be the source information for nearby Me 262 manufacturing activity, please clue me in.

Regards,
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 31st October 2013, 17:29
RolandF RolandF is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 863
RolandF is on a distinguished road
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

"Im März und April 1945 musste das Strahler-Jagdgeschwader aufgrund der näherrückenden Front seine bisherigen Standorte aufgeben. Einer der neuen Standorte war Mettenheim, so dass dort kurz vor Kriegsende, auch das Strahlenflugzeug ,,Messerschmitt ME 262" stationiert war - jener Flugzeugtyp, der auch im Mühldorfer Hart hätte hergestellt werden sollen."

"Due to the approaching frontline the jet squadron had to abandon its existing bases. One of the new bases was Mettenheim, so that the jet plane "Me 262", which was to be produced in Mühldorf forest ("Mühldorfer Hart" = WEINGUT) just before the war´s end was also stationed there ".

Not quite exact, IMO. The only jet unit based in Mettenheim for a short time was 10./EJG 2 - from 27, April 1945 onwards - before being absorbed by JV 44. Several EJG 2 squadrons were based on numerous airfields surrounding Munich, maybe this is the background of the story.
More important IMO is the presence of a forced labour and concentration camp, whose inhabitants were building Weingut and certainly were envisaged to assembly the Me 262. I would not exclude the approaching frontline forcing the Luftwaffe authorities to establish Me 262 assembly sites in the infrastructure of Fliegerhorste such as Erding, Mühldorf and whatsover. Always connected by railway which the still-producing sites between Scheppach and Mauthausen?
The war situation prevented those plans. I remember Schmoll having written that machinery in boxing was ready for transport at Regensburg-Obertraubling. The last Me 262s were flown out from Obertraubling end of April `45 when the US army was approaching from Northern Bavaria!

Regards

Roland
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 31st October 2013, 18:21
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 626
Richard T. Eger is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear Roland,

As you have noted in your translation, any claimed Me 262 production was in future tense. Do you think that this statement was misinterpreted in Wings of the Black Cross Number Seven as a statement of established production at Weingut I? Or, did this claim come from a completely different source and, if so, what?

Regards,
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 31st October 2013, 19:00
edwest edwest is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,612
edwest is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear Richard,


Some of this I know you know but there may be a few clues.


http://www.ww2-landmarkscout.com/201...2-factory.html




Best,
Ed
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 1st November 2013, 20:16
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 626
Richard T. Eger is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear Ed,

I found your link most helpful. The easiest way to gain attention is to link something to the Me 262 - in this case, the carapace facility at Mühldorf to Me 262 production. However, this connection is wrong, but others, possibly even Jerry Crandall, may have used this Internet source to make the caption claim of nearby Me 262 production to the airfield at Mühldorf. Thus, you have provided me with one erroneous source and likely there are others, possibly cross feeding upon themselves.

So, what is the truth? For carapace facility related matters, I rely primarily on 3 sources:

TNC Air 10/3873: German Experience in the Underground Transfer of War Industries: Historical and Statistical. Underground Structures Panel, British Bombing Survey Unit. 1946

IWM: German Underground Installations, Part One of Three, Unique Design and Construction Methods, British Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee, report prepared by Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency, Washington, D.C., Sept. 1945

NARA II RG No. 319: Air Technical Service Command Industrial Planning Project: Industrial Planning Project: A Recommended Program for the Underground Manufacture of Aircraft (Initial Phase), Industrial Planning Section, Logistics Planning Division, Plans (T-5), Air Materiel Command, Army Air Forces, Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio, 26 June 1946.

Let me start with the NARA II report, which clearly could contribute to the confusion:

"Plans for 12 of these bunker type plants were formulated during the war and work on four of them was actually initiated, but because of lack of manpower, materials, and time, none of the projects was ever placed in full operation. For example, the Landsburg plant (Weingut II) located in Bavaria, Germany, was approximately three fourths completed at the time of capture, and although designed as a complete aircraft factory, from fabrication through final assembly, only fabrication operations were taking place when captured."

The highest number I've seen claimed is 7 or 8, so 12 is new to me. But, being formulated (planned", I guess they could have considered the higher number, even if no construction ever started on at least 4 of them.

"1. Bunker Plant. -- During the latter part of 1944, construction was initiated on four large semi-underground Messerschmitt factories in the general vicinity of Munich. The purpose of this program was to provide bomb-proof, concealed large buildings in which Germany could produce the latest type of Messerschmitt jet-propelled plane without major interruption to production. None of the four structures was completed when the European war ended, although a six month construction period had been originally estimated. Typical of the four plants is "Weingut II" located northwest of Landsburg, Germany."

Now, it is possible that, at one point of time or another use of all these facilities to produce the Me 262 may have been planned, but that certainly isn't how the final planning went.

The report gives information on the 2 most prominent of these facilities:

"Plant & Location
Landsberg (on Lech River) 40 mi. West of Munich

Name of Firm
Messersschmitt

Description of site
Bunker Plant: New arched semi-buried reinforced concrete building, 84 ft. high, 287 ft. wide and 1,092 ft. long at first floor level, 60 ft. protrudes above surface; 16' 6" thick at top of the single broad arched concrete shell or carapace. 60% complete. Two other similar structures were under construction in this area but were not as far advanced.

Production
Messerschmitt aircraft was planned."


"Plant & Location
Muhldorf (near Ampfing)

Name of Firm
Not available

Description of Site
Bunker plant; arched roof was to be 16 ft thick, 1200 ft. long, and 260 ft wide at the base; to contain 8 floors.

Production
Buna rubber planned for part of plant; ammonia plant in middle section and tire factory in rear section. No production obtained."

So, not only was Me 262 production at the end of the war not planned for Mühldorf, what was planned never got started.

The IWM report had this to say:

'1. Description of Targets - During the latter half of 1944, the Organization Todt started construction of four large semi-underground Messerschmitt factories in the general vicinity of Munich. The purpose of this construction was to provide bomb-proof, concealed large buildings in which Germany could produce the latest type of Messerschmitt jet-propelled plane without major interruptions of production. None of the four structures were complete when the European War ended although a 6-month construction period had been originally estimated originally. The geographical location of each of the four factories is indicated in Fig. 1.

For purposes of secrecy the Germans assigned the following code names to the four plants:

Plant Located / Code Name

NW of Landsburg, Germany / Walnuss II
NW of Landsburg, Germany / Weingut II
North side of NR (Landsburg to Buchloe) / Diana II
Vicinity of Mühldorf, Germany / Weingut I

All four plants were to be essentially of the same construction. Best progress was made on "Weingut II" and "Weingut I." '

Obviously, for the descriptive text, one of these reports borrowed off of the other.

The most in-depth information is to be found in the TNA report:

"Production was obtained from only one of the seven carapaces; Messerschmitt began limited production in the completed end of the carapace Weingut II at Landsberg in January, 1945. By this time the weight of Allied attack had shifted to the German Oil Industry, and it was planned to install a shale oil refinery in the sister site, Weingut I at Mühldorf. A third carapace was to house plants of the chemical industry: a buna rubber plant, a tyre factory, and an ammonia plant were all scheduled for transfer into carapace plants."

Apparently, usage priorities got shifted based on needs of the time. Now, however, the TNA report said there were seven carapace facilities, not four or twelve. The report does give us some indicators. Let's start with the known four.

"158. Landsberg

Code: Walnus II. Diana II (Ringeltaube).
Type: Carapace.
Production: R.O.M. state jet aircraft. Firms transferred to Weingut I (Muhldorf) and II.
State: Excavation or conversion begun - abandoned in October, 1944.
Source of information: C.I.O.S. Team 660. R.O.M. Projects Lists B and E. List D (O.T.)
N.B.--Diana II one mile south-west of Weingut II.
Walnus II one mile north of Weingut II."

"159. Landsberg

Code: Weingut II.
Type: Carapace.
Production: Aircraft components for Messerschmitt. R.O.M. state jet aircraft.
Firm: Messerschmitt.
State: Some production obtained, but still under construction.
Floor space: 1,513,169 sq. ft. planned (i.e. ground floor plus five floors); 160,000 sq. ft. available.
Source of information: C.I.O.S. Team 660. R.O.M. Projects List B. List D (O.T.). "

"192. Muhldorf

Code: Weingut I and Eckstein.
Type: Carapace.
Production: Buna rubber planned, also plans to house ammonia plant and tyre factory in carapace.
Firm: Weingut-Betriebe G.m.b.H.
State: Excavation or conversion begun.
Floor space: 2,496,000 sq. ft. planned; 156,000 sq. ft. available. (Similar to Weingut II.)
Source of information: C.I.O.S. Team 660. U.S.S.B.S. Oil Div. Report on Underground and Dispersal Plants in Greater Germany, dated 23rd October, 1945. R.O.M. Projects List B."

A fifth I can add for sure, the carapace facility at Bedburg/Blerichen:

"26. Bedburg/Blerichen

Code: Biber.
Type: Carapace (Bunkerwerk).
Production: Construction abandoned due to Allied advance.
Firm: Deutsche Edelstahl.
Floor space: Seven floors.
Source of information: B.B.R.M. Team. ROM Project List A."

The report contains an aerial photo of the site. A sixth site was:

"6. Allach
Code: Walnus I.
Type: Carapace.
Production: Aero-engine components.
Firm: B.M.W., Munich.
State: Not complete. No production.
Source of information: List D (OT).

A possible site, but only defined as a carapace or bunker, was:

"101. Glatz/Mühldorf

Code: Dachs VIII.
Type: Carapace or bunker.
Production: Lubricating oil planned.
Firm: Kontinental Öl A.G.
Source of information: C.I.O.S./C.A.F.T. Report Q.2604. Official list of German underground factories. List D (O.T.)."

And a possible eighth:

"243. Roudnice/Hnevice

Type: Probably carapace u/c.
State: Abandoned. No production.
Source of information: P.I. Report., U.53, File No. 47."

So, there is about as complete an overview as I can provide regarding the various carapace facilities. From this information, we see that even original documentation can be misleading. It is clear how one might associate Me 262 production with the carapace facilty at Mühldorf. But, as the above clearly shows, this never happened.

Regards,
Richard
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 2nd November 2013, 17:25
Jerry Crandall Jerry Crandall is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hamilton Montana
Posts: 79
Jerry Crandall
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Hi all;
Here are the reverse sides of the photos in question. Throughout the album there is more information on the captioning of the photos and locations and information on the reverse sides of the images.
The second photo was of his tent where he was based at the time.
For your information...
Cheers
Jerry
Attached Images
File Type: jpg M-dorf-1.jpg (22.5 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg m-dorf-2.jpg (29.0 KB, 48 views)
__________________
Jerry Crandall
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 2nd November 2013, 22:02
Richard T. Eger Richard T. Eger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seaford, DE, U.S.A.
Posts: 626
Richard T. Eger is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Need confirmation of photo claimed to be taken at airfield at Mühldorf

Dear Jerry,

Thanks for the images of the backs of the photos. I'd asked Judy about your source information for the Mühldorf Me 262 manufacturing claim and also, if you have a decent scan of the photo, I'd like to print it and add it to my collection.

If we can garner enough of these "dump" photos, such as now appears to be the case with the Kassel photos also showing mid/rear Me 262 fuselages, I think we can begin to build a case that there was no nearby or local manufacturing, but that such parts were removed from trains by the Allies and collected at convenient dump sites, much as was done with aircraft scattered around Germany.

Regards,
Richard
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wartime colour (Kodachrome) photo of a VVS Yak-9 Kari Lumppio Allied and Soviet Air Forces 3 26th July 2010 15:16
Photo online: Bf 109 E-7 w.3, 8./JG 5, May 1942 Kari Lumppio Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 18 19th February 2009 11:24
Hans-Joachim Marseille by James H. Kitchens,III & John R. Beaman, Jr PhilippeDM Books and Magazines 2 20th July 2008 20:50
Aerial Photo Halberstadt Airfield blythsco Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 10 2nd June 2008 16:41
F/O John Greer Boyle, KIA 41 Sqn 28.9.40 - photo needed Geoff Kennell Allied and Soviet Air Forces 0 28th January 2005 15:55


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:44.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net