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  #11  
Old 16th April 2019, 15:33
INM@RLM INM@RLM is offline
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

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Originally Posted by INM@RLM View Post
Regarding box 6, most likely J-BACC was the first singleton example bought for assessment by Manchuria and was also from this 987 to 992 batch. I would love to see the source reference for this sighting, however, in my judgement it will not have been for W.Nr. 993.
The reason is that W.Nr. block 993 to 997 was assigned to the 5 x Bf 109 A Null-Serie of the third batch. [Radinger & Schick: Me 109 A/E table p.34 where they are simply described as A-Serie]. A duplicate assignment of just this specific W.Nr. would not be impossible in principle – Manchuria is after all a long way from Germany. But J-BACC was apparently registered in Aug-36, and for this assignment to be made so close in time to the other imj wholly rules this out – subject, of course, to seeing incontrovertible evidence of this duplicate assignment. (Smiley face)

What I wrote here is incorrect. I've checked the source that Lennart gave me for W.Nr. 993 as J-BACC - Japan not Manchuria for this example (p.111 of the Arawasi J-BIRD voume of the Japanese civil register) and rechecked my reconstruction of the Bf 109 A-series based on Radinger & Schick.


The first block of Bf 108s delivered to satisfy commercial sales did indeed comprise seven aircraft, assigned W.Nr. 987 to 993 (with three of these confirmed by individual identity now), and the last of these Werk-Nummern was in fact never allocated to any Bf 109 A at any time. Me culpa. With my apologies.


The total for all Bf 108s built for Germany increases by one to 892.
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  #12  
Old 17th April 2019, 11:58
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

A Footnote on the Bf 108s purchased for Manchukuo.
Forsgren wrote that six were received in 1937 and thirteen in 1938 (p.89). Serials included M-58 & M-65 and W.Nr. 1662 & 1668. (No links given between the two types of data.)
The 1938 total is fully supported by the J-BIRD listing. Page 307 documents the thirteen arrivals in 1938, all registered on 01-Jul-38, with registrations M-51 to M-62 both inclusive plus M-65. If my Japanese is up to snuff, at least ten of these had seen significant prior service. Three already had between 100 and 200 hours on the airframe and a further four between 40 and 100 hours each. No Werk-Nummern are listed for any of these 1938 arrivals. Photographs of M-55 & M-58 are included in J-BIRD, each in a pale overall finish. (Each photo is approx 4 cm x 8 cm.)

There is no mention in J-BIRD of the six 1937 arrivals. However, between M-36 and M-50 there is only a gap in the M-registrations for this period. Doubtless these six earlier Bf 108s will account for part of this interval.
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  #13  
Old 17th April 2019, 17:39
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Sergio Luis dos Santos Sergio Luis dos Santos is offline
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

6 x Bf 108 B-1 (W.Nr. 987 to 992, delivered 1936/7) – This last looks like an initial batch made up exclusively of privat (commercial) sales. Certainly the first example went to Brazil and the last to Australia.

Yes, W.Nr. 987 was bought by Varig in 1935 arriving by ship in 1936. Was officialy registered at RAB on 26/06/1936. It got extensive damage in a crash on 24/11/1936. It was returned to Messerschmitt but do not know what happened to the plane after that.
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  #14  
Old 19th April 2019, 12:32
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

Thank you for that additional snippet, Sergio. I have the Tincopa+Rivas Hikoki title but coverage of W.Nr. 987, PP-VAJ is very thin. Just "While Condor was expanding its routes, in 1936 Varig purchased a Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (PP-VAJ) for training and light transport, but it was lost in an accident on 24 November." (p.81-II)

The entry in the appendix table on p.355 of this book gives delivery as 26/9/36 (your date is three months earlier) and that it was apparently registered as type Bf 108G.
I'd be most grateful for any additional light you can throw on those two differences. (Maybe you are able to confirm the earlier delivery date from a contemporary documentary source?)
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Old 19th April 2019, 19:16
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

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Originally Posted by INM@RLM View Post
Thank you for that additional snippet, Sergio. I have the Tincopa+Rivas Hikoki title but coverage of W.Nr. 987, PP-VAJ is very thin. Just "While Condor was expanding its routes, in 1936 Varig purchased a Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (PP-VAJ) for training and light transport, but it was lost in an accident on 24 November." (p.81-II)

The entry in the appendix table on p.355 of this book gives delivery as 26/9/36 (your date is three months earlier) and that it was apparently registered as type Bf 108G.
I'd be most grateful for any additional light you can throw on those two differences. (Maybe you are able to confirm the earlier delivery date from a contemporary documentary source?)

My mistake! Sorry. Yes, September is the correct month not June as I wrote before... Becoming and "old eagle" is not easy... It happens several times!

The date 26/09/1936 is not for delivering but when the plane is officialy registered on RAB or Registro Aeronáutico Brasileiro (Brazilian Aeronautics Register). It was not rare planes being registered days or even months after being doing flights in Brasil. Same for sold or damaged planes being removed from RAB months or years after the event day... There are a few planes that were not registered but thanks for some photos or documents we can track them.
Commander Carlos Ruhl wrote the plane had a trouble with the fuel pump and the manual pump did not helped so the engine stoped and an emergency landing was done. He and a passanger had light wounds.
SOC from RAB 25/01/1937. My files shows it registered as a B-0.
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  #16  
Old 20th April 2019, 20:15
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

Sergio, many thanks indeed for the check, the correction and the expansion. Most helpful and very much appreciated.
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  #17  
Old 21st April 2019, 15:46
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

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Sergio, many thanks indeed for the check, the correction and the expansion. Most helpful and very much appreciated.

My pleasure. And I can correct it as not being a B-0 but a B-1.
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  #18  
Old 21st April 2019, 16:13
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

Just a question. W.Nr. 1139 is a B-1 too?
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  #19  
Old 23rd April 2019, 00:57
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

Sergio, my apologies, I should have pointed out in the earlier post that W.Nr. 987, PP-VAJ was indeed a Bf 108 B-1. Basically after the seven B-0 Nullserie, W.Nr. 871 to 877 (each also assigned a B Versuchsnummer ID) every other Bf 108 B-series aircraft was built to the Bf 108 B-1 standard current at the time of manufacture.
A handful are reported in service as Bf 108 B-2s. As yet I've found no definitive documentation to account for the change in sub-type. However, I have a suspicion that the B-2 designation could be associated with the fitting of a Messerschmitt MeP 7 variable pitch propeller. (Forsgren makes this link on p.56 but restricts it to just the B-2/trop variant, whilst the explanation given for the B-2 on p.53 there is indubitably incorrect.)
Peter Schmoll makes no reference to any Bf 108 B-models being completed at Regensburg in a trop variant. So likely all these were post-delivery modifications applied 'randomly' to individual examples simply on the basis that these were available for issue when tropicalised aircraft were required.
The MeP 7 seems to have been offered as an optional 'extra' to non-RLM customers. (So people willing to pay more for extra performance.) This propeller is the most likely explanation for the pre-1945 photographs, frequently of Bf 108s retained for company use by Messerschmitt, showing examples with a smoothly contoured spinner. This design of spinner is markedly different to the stepped shape of the fixed-blade Heine prop standard on most Bf 108 Bs. To complicate matters further, the spinners shown in the side view paintings of the Forsgren title are almost always portrayed inaccurately, and are best ignored for this aspect.

Your reference to W.Nr. 1139 intrigues. I have this as the first W.Nr. in an order for 50 Ju 87s placed with BFW but cancelled before construction began. Of these 50 I currently have only the last four being back-filled, W.Nr. 1185 - 1188 being later assigned to the four Me 209 Versuchs, V-1 to V-4. Grateful for whatever details you can add on W.Nr. 1139.
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  #20  
Old 23rd April 2019, 17:06
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Re: Book Review (with corrections and expansions) of Jan Forsgren: Messerschmitt Bf 108 Taifun (Mushroom Yellow Series No. 6132)

It was clear to me from the earlier post that W.Nr. 987 was a B-1 and was registerd in Brazil as a B-0. No problem!


I asked about the W.Nr. 1139 but after reading you info about the Stuka I have just checked Rivas book and indeed its listed there as being 1129 is its clear the data I had about the D-IBFW had a wrong W.Nr.!
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