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  #1  
Old 6th March 2005, 18:16
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Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

Since i suppose D.Hermann more than G.Gollob restricted the list to Fw 190 units, could someone telll us where could we find what was anticipated about the Bf 109 units ?



From Fw 190 "Long Nose", D.Hermann, Schiffer Pub, page 117:

In March 45, Gen der Jagdfliegder G. Gollob issued a list of aircraft types from the Emergency Fighter Program to be assigned to Fw 190 units:


full JG2.........................> Fw 190D-9
II./JG4.........................> Fw 190D-9
I. & II./JG6 ..................> Fw 190D-9
I. & III./JG 11 ..............> Fw 190D-9
I., II., IV./JG26 ............> Fw 190D-12
I., II. & III./JG54 ..........> Fw 190D-9
II.JG300 .......................> Fw 190D-9/R11 to Me 262
I. & II./JG301 ................> Fw 190D-9/R11 to Ta 152
III./KG(J)27...................> Fw 190D-9/R11
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Old 6th March 2005, 18:23
Don Pearson Don Pearson is offline
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Full listing

"Focke Wulf Fw 190/ Ta 152" by Griehl/Dressel has a more complete listing. I can post it as time allows today.

Don
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Old 6th March 2005, 22:34
Ota Jirovec Ota Jirovec is offline
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Standardization of Bf 109K units

Below is the short excerpt from Messerschmitt Bf 109K monography by A. Janda and A. Poruba, JaPo 1997, p. 89:

"Despite failure of standardisation itself, its plan was realised. On February 8, 1945 a plan of re-equipment with Bf 109K-4s nad K-4/R6s was attached to lists of actual equipment of the units. Besides other, Bf 109K-4s were to appear at following units: II/JG 3, IV/JG 4, III. and IV/JG 5, III/JG 6, II/JG 7, I., III. and IV/JG 51, II/JG 52, II/JG 77 and all Italian fighter units, Bf 109K-4/R6s were to be assigned to III. and IV/JG 300, I. and II/KG(J) 6 and I. and II/KG(J) 27.

This plan was modified two months later and reflected an effort for wider use of more advanced fighter types as for example Fw 190D-11/12/13s, Ta-152H-10s or He 162s, so that Bf 109s were to be replaced with another type instead of the anticipated Bf 109K-4s. Also another version appeared in the plans, the Bf 109K-6. These planes should have equipped IV/JG 3, IV/JG 4 and IV/JG 300. The Bf 109K-4s were to spread to remaining Gruppen of JG 3 and JG 4, Bf 109K-4/R6 to KG(J) 30. None of this really happened."

Hope this helps,

Ota
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Old 6th March 2005, 22:39
John Manrho John Manrho is offline
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Copies?

Does anybody have copies of the original documents? I would be interested in obtaining copies of these documents. Cheers, John.
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Old 14th March 2005, 21:24
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The proposed changes to units equipped with Bf 109 were as follows :

OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45

No. Unit Present type Convert to Notes
1. III./ JG 1 Bf 109 G-10 He 162 (April/May) -
2. II. / JG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
3. III. / JG 3 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
4. III. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
5. IV. / JG 4 Bf 109 K-4 K-4 -
6. III. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
7. IV. / JG 5 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
8. III. / JG 6 Bf 109 G-14/AS K-4 when deliveries permit -
9. II. / JG 11 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
10. I. / JG 27 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
11. II. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
12. III. / JG 27 Bf 109 G-10 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
13. I. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
14. III. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
15. IV. / JG 51 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
16. II. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
17. III. / JG 52 Bf 109 G-14 K-4 when deliveries permit -
18. II. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change -
19. III. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
20. IV. / JG 53 Bf 109 K-4 no change boost increase to 1.98 ata
21. I. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-14/U4 K-4 when deliveries permit -
22. II. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
23. III. / JG 77 Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
24. III. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 planned, deadline
25. IV. / JG 300 Bf 109 G-10/R6 via K-4 to Me 262 -
26. I. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
27. II. / KG(J) 6 Bf 109 K-4 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
30. I. / KG(J) 27 Bf 109 G-10/R6 K-4/R6 when deliveries permit -
31. I. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 G-10/R6 - -
32. II. / KG(J) 55 Bf 109 K-4 - to industrial defense
33. Ist Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
34. IInd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -
35. IIIrd Italian FG Bf 109 G-10 K-4 when deliveries permit -

Thanks to this Hungarian site, i dont know who is the author, we now have reference from the original document:

http://www.kurfurst.atw.hu/articles/MW_KvsXIV.htm

John, or any other historian, would be nice if one of you could show us the original document.

Cheers, LLv34_Doc.
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Old 5th July 2005, 20:49
Kurfürst Kurfürst is offline
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Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

Hey geez, that`s my little site

The info comes from Kobel/Mathmann`s Bf 109 book.

Does anybody have the mentioned report in it`s original form?
I mean the OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45

The reason I ask is because the document notes the changeover to 1.98ata with G-10/K-4 units, and it`s little debated by some to say at least - which is one reason I put that article together - and I am looking for the clearance orders for 1.98ata.

Butch2k says it`s February 1945, and the above order notes it`s actually happening in march, but more info is always welcome.
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Old 6th July 2005, 01:12
ArtieBob ArtieBob is offline
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Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

I don't know if this helps or not, but the Flugzeugweiterentwicklung-Terminplan (my translation-aircraft further development schedule) from Chef TLR/FL-E in Jan 45 appears to give the Bf 109 production phase out schedule. G-14s in 2/45, G-10s and K-4s in 8/45, K-4/R-6 IN 11/45. K-6/R-6 begin 3/45 and end in 9/45. IMHO any LW planning document put together in 1945 probably contains more fantasy than reality.

Best regards,

Artie Bob
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Old 6th July 2005, 02:23
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Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

Very interesting info, Art. And, your point about such planning is undoubtedly correct. But, if you were in that office at that time, what would you do -- roll over and play dead? In my estimation, all you could do is take the situation at that time, and try to plan ahead based on it, even if in your heart of hearts you knew that you're simply blowing smoke, and that the world as you know it is dying all around you.

I especially empathize with those military people -- in all services -- who, knowing that nothing they did would affect the course of the war anymore, still went into action each day.
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Old 6th July 2005, 02:27
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Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

I remember getting that info from Richard Smith years ago. Whether or not he got it from original documents, I don't know.
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Old 6th July 2005, 13:32
Kurfürst Kurfürst is offline
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Re: Awaited, 1945 Luftwaffe Fighter units evolution ?

You mean the OKL, Lw.-Führüngstab, Nr. 937/45 gKdos.(op) 20.03.45 docs, George? I recall in your book Monogram Bf109K it`s was stated that 'in March 1945 the Bf 109K with an improved supercharger was to came into production'.

This was connected to the 'Ersatz' K-14, ie. K-4 with a doppelader DB 605D, but it cuts into the 1.98ata boost things since perhaps 'verbesserte Ladedruck/Lader' can be mixed up..

OTOH, Japo`s new 109K has a czech mechanic noting that he seen two staged 605Ds coming into his factory from March 1945 onwards, so it`s perhaps not a mixup in the end at all. It`s rather confusing. Can somebody clear up that for me?


BTW, this could be useful regarding the 1945 state of the LW. I got it from a discussion on the old (now closed) onwar forums, unfurtunately it only lists Bf 109 types in detail :

From : RL2III/1158

On 31 January 1945 the combat units of the Luftwaffe and their associated Erganzungs Einheiten, had the following strength in Bf109 types. These are on hand totals, they include both 'frontline' and 'other' units. Included are all aircraft operational and non-operational at the time. (combat/Erganzungs):
Bf109G1/5 (0/1)
Bf109G12 (0/5)
Bf109G6 (71/328)
Bf109G14 and G14U4 (431/190)
Bf109G10, G10/U4 and G14/AS (568/3)
Bf109K4 (314/0)
Bf109G10/R6 (51/0)
Total (1435/527)

Other Jagd types totaled (1058/359)
Schlacht types totaled (680/375)
Nachtschlacht types totaled (422/95)
Zerstorer types totaled (42/0)
Nachtjagd types totaled (1241, no breakdown between the two)
Kampf types totaled (543/158)
Nahaufklarer totaled (407/27)
Fernaufklarer totaled (195/81)
See types totaled (78/17)
Transport types totaled (496/9)
Grand total (6597/1631)
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