Severe Overclaimers Vs. Reliable Claimers List

[Rob Romero]

Recently, I attempted to initiate a database of Historically Verifiable Victories (VV). Although some headway (especially with WWI German Aces) has been attained, the result, has not yet become what one might have hoped. Perhaps a more pragmatic approach would be to garner a sense of which aces were Reliable Vs. Exaggerated Claimants. Admittedly, as with Historically Verifiable Victories Thread, this would be an IMPERFECT and CONTROVERSIAL undertaking, however, eventually, and which much vetting, this avenue might garner some historical insight. To reduce my workload, I will keep this list EXCLUSIVE from the more concrete results obtained in the Historically Verifiable Victories (VV) Thread.

Alleged Heavy Overclaimers
352 Erich Hartmann –based on ‘research’ of Dimitri Khazanov
258 Walter Nowotny
224 Erich Rudorffer Afrika “Rudorffer's serious overclaims over the eastern front” Falsified Claims in Afrika?
173 Emil Lang
129 Walter Dahl –less than 100 credits according to J-Y Lorant
127 Walter Oesau
112 Kurt Bühlingen
99 Heinrich Bartels
94 Rudolf Muller
93 Sigfried Schnell
56 Helmut Wick
37 Thomas McGwire (Harry Brown (7) personally indicated McGwire scrambled, parachuted over base & claimed 3 kills he could not possibly have made!)
33 Erwin Sawallisch (Allegedly caught falsifying combats with schwarm in Afrika –may have subsequently killed himself -Source Hans Ring/Chris Shores)

JG2 in Afrika, JG5 , JG54 are some of the Luftwaffe Units Alleged to have had a licentious outlook on overclaiming.

Alleged Reliable Claimers
-Keep in mind that few pilots even come near to 100% reliablility in their claims!
221 Heinz Bär?
158 Hans-Joachim Marseille
103 Adolf Galland (Don Caldwell alleges that Galland deliberately overclaimed on at least one occaision)
102 Egon Mayer
101 Josef Priller (Kept meticulous record of combats apparently researched and largely verified by Johnny Johnson (38 )
35 Bruno Stolle

Thanx,
Rob Romero

P.S. On a related note, on 9 Feb 43 Erich Rudorffer claimed to have shot down 8 aircraft (6 P-40s and 2 P-38s) American records do not substatiate his P-38 claims –how about the P-40s?

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Rob,

The following is from The Focke-Wulf FW 190 in North Africa book, written by by Morten Jessen and myself:

----------------
9 February 1943
At 13:45 six II./JG 2 pilots scrambled to intercept incoming enemy aircraft. A formation of four P-39s of the 81st FG was flying a reconnaissance mission north of Ousseltia and east of Kairouan, escorted by nine P-40Fs of GC II/5. 16 minutes after take-off, the Fw 190s attacked the P-40s, and in the engagement Sgt. Chef Denaix was hit and force-landed 24 km east of Kasserine. During this fight, Oblt. Bühligen claimed two P-40s destroyed, as did Ofw. Goltzsch, and these four victories occurred between 13:51 and 13:55, three south of Djebel bou Dabouss and one south of Djebel Rihane.[1] GC II/5 lost at least three P-40Fs in this combat, and Adjudant Chef Verrier, Sgt. Chef Denaix and Sgt. Chef Borg did not return from the mission, although no one was killed. The French pilots Hebrard, Moret and Denaix claimed a Fw 190 each, but II./JG 2 had no losses in the aerial engagement.[2]

[1] The latter location is not certain.

[2] GC II/5 War Diary, pp.38-39; Film C. 2027/I; Shores, Ring & Hess, Fighters Over Tunisia, pp.199-200

----------------

I posted the following in an earlier thread about II./J.G. 2 overclaiming in Tunisia:

----------------
II./J.G. 2 and Overclaiming/Falsification
Most of the suspect II./J.G. 2 claims in Tunisia occurred while they were based at Kairouan airfield in central Tunisia in January and the first half of February 1943. II./J.G. 2 pilots based at Kairouan during the period of overclaiming included: Bühligen, Rudorffer, Werner, Karch, Schülze, Goltzsche, Engelbrecht, von Farnholz, Übelbacher, Sonntag, Gäbler, Weißgruber, Jacobs, and Marx.

II./J.G. 2 was usually the only Luftwaffe unit based at Kairouan, and it was certainly the only fighter unit based there (except for the Stab J.G. 53 during the Kasserine operation). They were 150 to 200 km from the main German headquarters in northern and southern Tunisia, and reported to the Fliegerführer Tunis once a day, in the evening. The II./J.G. 2 detachment was usually at the most fifteen pilots (for example, on 5 February 1943 there were 13 pilots in the Kairouan detachment, and ten FW 190s).

Thus it was the perfect environment if the II./J.G. 2 pilots wanted to falsify claims. Rudorffer was the highest ranked officer, and he was surrounded by pilots who had been together in the Gruppe for a while.

Please note I am not saying that falsification of victories by II./J.G. 2 did occur, I’m just suggesting that rarely would a German fighter unit be in such a good position to submit false victory claims. The chances of discovery were very slim, so long as you had the trust of your fellow pilots.

Gaps in the American Records
This is a convenient excuse for the II./J.G. 2 pilots, but it’s simply not true. The 1st Fighter Group has complete records of its operations in the period of II./J.G. 2 over claiming. I have the 14th FG microfilms, and although their records aren’t as detailed as those of the 1st FG, there is enough information to be able to match up claims and losses. Unfortunately I’ve not seen the 82nd FG records, so I generally rely on Shores, Ring & Hess for their Tunisian operations (which is one reason why Morten and I weren’t too definite about II./J.G. 2 overclaiming in our book).

Martin Gleeson mentions the 3rd PRG with P-38s in Tunisia. This is a valid point, but generally II./J.G. 2 was claiming multiple P-38 kills, and the PRG units flew singly, eliminating it as a possibility in most cases.

Rudorffer on the Eastern Front
As for Rudorffer on the Eastern Front, I’m no expert, but I know that in at least one combat he and his wingman were very optimistic with their claims. I should note that I don’t wish to accuse him of anything (I believe he is still alive). Morten and I wrote to him in 2001 asking if he wanted to provide information for our book, but he declined. We wish we could have got his side of the story.
----------------

I would like to take this opportunity to defend the reputation of II./J.G. 2 in Tunisia. In the early months of 1943 II./J.G. 2 enjoyed great success against the Americans in central Tunisia on many occasions. There were only a few days when overclaiming of an unacceptable level occurred.

The days of serious overclaiming were 9 February, 14 February, 15 February, and 12 March 1943. On these days II./J.G. 2 claimed 44 victories, for which there are only six known Allied losses.

The Gruppe made around 130 victory claims in Tunisia, so this means that around 85 of the claims made were genuine.

Aside from the four days mentioned above, all other claims submitted by II./J.G. 2 in Tunisia were relatively accurate. For example, on 2, 3 and 4 February 1943 II./J.G. 2 claimed 21 victories for 13 known Allied losses, which I consider very acceptable.

I hope the above is of interest.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

[Rob Romero]

Arty, thanks for your reply. However, you don’t address the issue of Rudorfer’s Claims on 9 Feb 43. Rudorffer claimed to have shot down 8 aircraft (6 P-40s and 2 P-38s) within 23 minutes (13:59-14:22) –as the longest gap between claims was 15 minutes, it is manifest that these occurred within a single mission! American records do not substatiate his P-38 claims –how about the P-40s?



09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 Curtiss P-40 £ 5 km. S.E. Djebel Ousseltia: 1.500 m. 13.59 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.81
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 Curtiss P-40 £ S. Djebel Ousseltia: 500 m. 14.00 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.82
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 Curtiss P-40 £ Djebel Ousseltia: 200 m. 14.01 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.83
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 Curtiss P-40 £ 12 km. N.W. Pribon: 200 m. 14.02 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.84
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 Curtiss P-40 £ 10 km. S.E. Kerra: 300 m. 14.04 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.85
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 Curtiss P-40 £ 15 km. S.E. Kerra: tiefflug 14.06 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.86
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 5 km. E. Djebel Barbraü: 6.000 m. 14.21 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.87
09.02.43 Oblt. Erich Rüdorffer 6./JG 2 P-38 £ 5 km. W. Djebel Barbraü: 6.000 m. 14.22 Film C. 2027/I Anerk: Nr.88

Thanx,
Rob Romero

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi Rob,

I actually did address the 9 February 1943 combat. Here it is again, this time with Allied P-40 losses on this date in boldface:

-----------------
9 February 1943
At 13:45 six II./JG 2 pilots scrambled to intercept incoming enemy aircraft. A formation of four P-39s of the 81st FG was flying a reconnaissance mission north of Ousseltia and east of Kairouan, escorted by nine P-40Fs of GC II/5. 16 minutes after take-off, the Fw 190s attacked the P-40s, and in the engagement Sgt. Chef Denaix was hit and force-landed 24 km east of Kasserine. During this fight, Oblt. Bühligen claimed two P-40s destroyed, as did Ofw. Goltzsch, and these four victories occurred between 13:51 and 13:55, three south of Djebel bou Dabouss and one south of Djebel Rihane.[1] GC II/5 lost at least three P-40Fs in this combat, and Adjudant Chef Verrier, Sgt. Chef Denaix and Sgt. Chef Borg did not return from the mission, although no one was killed. The French pilots Hebrard, Moret and Denaix claimed a Fw 190 each, but II./JG 2 had no losses in the aerial engagement.[2]

[1] The latter location is not certain.
[2] GC II/5 War Diary, pp.38-39; Film C. 2027/I; Shores, Ring & Hess, Fighters Over Tunisia, pp.199-200

------------------

So three P-40 losses in the combat on 9 February 1943 in which Rudorffer claimed six P-40s shot down.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

[Rob Romero]

Thanks Andrew,

In your original post, you only mention the 2 claimed by Bühligen and Goltzsch each, so I guess that with Rüdorffer’s 6 claims, II/JG2 actually shot down 3 of the 10 claims they made?

Thanx,
Rob

[Hohentwiel]

Originally Posted by Andrew Arthy

[1] The latter location is not certain.
[2] GC II/5 War Diary, pp.38-39; Film C. 2027/I; Shores, Ring & Hess, Fighters Over Tunisia, pp.199-200

Who tells us that these sources are correct?

on helmut wick ,3 spitfires 0n 6th nov 40 . but no RAF losses submit these.
he did shoot down a hurricane,southampton,sgt adairt

[Rob Romero]

-Update -Addition to Reliable Claimers Oskar Romm (92/79EVV)

92 Oskar Romm -On the basis of 5 Feb 44 mission in which he claimed 1 Soviet Yak & 5 Bostons -Yak shot down & 6/8 Bostons claimed by JG51 were shot down. On the basis of this single mission I will assign him a VERY PRELIMINARY claim reliability ESTIMATE of 79.2% and Estimate his Verified victories @ (79EVV)

Recently, I attempted to initiate a database of Historically Verifiable Victories (VV). Although some headway (especially with WWI German Aces) has been attained, the result, has not yet become what one might have hoped. Perhaps a more realistic approach would be to garner a sense of which aces were reliable versus exaggerated claimants. Admittedly, as with Historically Verifiable Victories Thread, the this would be an IMPERFECT and CONTROVERSIAL undertaking, however, eventually, and which much vetting, this avenue might garner some historical insight. To reduce my workload, I will keep this list EXCLUSIVE from the more concrete results obtained in the Historically Verifiable Victories (VV) Thread.

Alleged Heavy Overclaimers
352 Erich Hartmann –based on ‘research’ of Dimitri Khazanov
258 Walter Nowotny
224 Erich Rudorffer Afrika “Rudorffer's serious overclaims over the eastern front” Falsified Claims in Afrika?
173 Emil Lang
129 Walter Dahl –less than 100 credits according to J-Y Lorant
127 Walter Oesau
112 Kurt Bühlingen
99 Heinrich Bartels
94 Rudolf Muller
93 Sigfried Schnell
56 Helmut Wick
37 Thomas McGwire (Harry Brown (7) personally related that McGwire scrambled, parachuted over base & claimed 3 kills he could not possibly have made!)
33 Erwin Sawallisch (Allegedly caught falsifying combats with schwarm in Afrika –may have subsequently killed himself -Source Hans Ring/Chris Shores)

JG2 in Afrika, JG5 , JG54 are some of the Luftwaffe Units Alleged to have had a licentious attitude over overclaiming.

Alleged Reliable Claimers
(Keep in mind that few pilots even come near to 100% reliablility in their claims)
221 Heinz Bär (Some overclaims)
158 Hans-Joachim Marseille
103 Adolf Galland (Don Caldwell alleges that Galland deliberately overclaimed on at least one occaision)
102 Egon Mayer
101 Josef Priller (Kept meticulous record of combats apparently researched and largely verified by Johnny Johnson (38 )
92 Oskar Romm -On the basis of 5 Feb 44 mission in which he claimed 1 Soviet Yak & 5 Bostons -Yak shot down & 6/8 Bostons claimed by JG51 were shot down. On the basis of this single mission I will assign him a VERY PRELIMINARY claim reliability ESTIMATE of 79.2% and Estimate his Verified victories @ (79EVV)
35 Bruno Stolle

[Rob Romero]

Gotta be more careful before I post

Oskar Romm (73EVV)

[Csaba B. Stenge]

Two of my favourites from the eastern front, Lipfert and Setz seems to me quite reliable without heavy overclaims (and Setz had very good sorties/kills rate as well). OFC I have just sporadic Soviet losses, but sometimes have good accounts from areas, where they fought.

I do hope, Heinrich Setz's full diary will be published once.