The Liberal View of the German Soldier

[Sylvester Stadler]

Originally Posted by mkenny

So the total of all soldiers/tanks in the is the key indicator?
Can we have the figures for 6 June 1944 and an explaination as to why the overwhelming German superiority was not decisive?
It seems that number manipulation is not confined to your 'opponents'.
It is just another 'we wuz outnumbered' excuse from one of the faithful.




Oh sorry. I had started to take you seriously, my mistake. Goodbye.

Mr. MKenny:

Since you don't take me seriously, perhaps you won't even read this, but for other more interested serious persons here is the information re: 6 June in Normandy:

Allies: Six divisions plus the three airborne divisions; 156,000 men were landed. I don't have statistics re: the number of tanks on the Allied side.

Germans: 352 Infantry Division (12,734 men)
716 Security Division (Infantry) (7,771)
711 SD (7,242)
709 SD (12,320)
Reserve: 21 PD (16,297)
12 SS PD (20,516)
Total German: 76,880 men plus corps and HQ. The security divisions were static and did not have the firepower of regular infantry divisions.

The two reserve armored divisions were released late and only the 21 PD engaged in combat with part of the division. So where is this German superiority in numbers on D-Day?

BTW, I don't take anyone seriously who does not do his own research.

To Franek G:
I don't know why you enter discussions to which you have nothing to contribute.

[mkenny]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

Mr. MKenny:

Since you don't take me seriously, perhaps you won't even read this, but for other more interested serious persons here is the information re: 6 June in Normandy:

Allies: Six divisions plus the three airborne divisions; 156,000 men were landed. I don't have statistics re: the number of tanks on the Allied side.

Germans: 352 Infantry Division (12,734 men)
716 Security Division (Infantry) (7,771)
711 SD (7,242)
709 SD (12,320)
Reserve: 21 PD (16,297)
12 SS PD (20,516)
Total German: 76,880 men plus corps and HQ. The security divisions were static and did not have the firepower of regular infantry divisions...........

Hmmm........earlier you gave the totals of all the men in Normandy yet here you now use specific totals for one event. See how you alter the criteria to suit your agenda.......

The two reserve armored divisions were released late and only the 21 PD engaged in combat with part of the division. So where is this German superiority in numbers on D-Day?

Give me the total of Germans in France on 6/6/44 and the total of Allies on the same date..........just like you did in your first post.
Who outnumbered who?

BTW, I don't take anyone seriously who does not do his own research.

I feel the same way about someone who bends facts to fit his perceptions...I will give you a figure though. 1000 Allied tanks landed on June 6th.

You clearly (because of your excuse loaded opening post) belong to the group of people who believe 'you' lost only because everyone else ganged up on you....for no good reason either!

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

To Franek G:
I don't know why you enter discussions to which you have nothing to contribute.

Plenty actually, but what for if you have no balls to use your own name.

[Franek Grabowski]

There is no purpose in discussing anything with an anonymous nazi supporter, as this will lead only to spread nazi propaganda.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

On 4 June 1940 Winston Churchill basically states that the success of the Wehrmacht in the battle for France (and Holland and Belgium) was based on superior numbers. This argument still is alive and well in the U.S. and the United Kingdom, and other countries.

I see a problem with your manifesto. You assume that every British reader who measures the words of the Prime Minister will believe anything he says. Churchill was later voted out of office, wasn't he?

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

The facts are much different than Churchill likes to portray them. Also the halt order from Hitler is well known and this alone prevented Guderian from reaching Dunkirk and prevent the evacuation of over 330,000 troops.

Maybe not. The German army was mainly horse-drawn. The Nazi propaganda films always tried to conceal that fact because their Napoleonic-era transport system was embarrassing to Hitler and his generals. German troops also walked a lot, and if you know anything about the physical endurance of horses, you know why.

Based on the motorized forces and upfront supplies available, are you sure that if Hitler countermanded this halt order it would change the outcome?

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

During the time I was in U.S. Army intelligence. I heard a NCO state his opinion that the ordinary German soldier lacked the necessary skills of initiative, knowledge, and drive that if the German officer commanding the unit were killed or otherwise incapacitated, the soldiers would not be capable of further action. This is the type of German soldier often portrayed by Hollywood

Had you served in "US Army intelligence" you would have quickly learned that German soldiers were guilty of making the same comments about American soldiers.

Nationalism and xenophobia are pervasive worldwide, so what is your point?

Originally Posted by Sylvester Stadler

Hollywood portrays is often taken as fact and truth by even intelligent people. Many university professors also express such thoughts.

This seems to be a common view of European journalists. They sometimes give opinions that suggest his/her understanding of Americans arises not from personal contact, but from watching too much television.

The Hollywood portrayal of German soldiers is no less accurate than the highly-cliched characters portrayed in German-made films like STALINGRAD. The political correctness and unlikely situations put in the script were not very convincing.

Thanks to novelists like Karl May, Luftwaffe pilots were more fascinated (some say obsessed) with American Western films than were American pilots. Today, not many Germans are aware of this and their ignorance makes me smile whenever I read about references to Cowboys and the Wild West in news reports from Germany.

Achtung Indianer!

[PeterVerney]

I think we are all being too simplistic. AND living in the modern age. Back then people thought differently. That said, man for man, I don't suppose there was a great deal of difference. The advantages the Allies had were several, pricipally that the German war machine was becoming exhausted and young , partially trained troops had to be slung in to fill the gaps. And mentally, the Germans were beginning to realise they were on the losing side, and like in playing sports or poker, one is defeated by defeatism.