Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Allied and Soviet Air Forces

Allied and Soviet Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the Air Forces of the Western Allies and the Soviet Union.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 26th December 2004, 15:56
Christer Bergström Christer Bergström is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 408
Christer Bergström is on a distinguished road
Polish pilopts 1 September 1939

Late in the afternoon of 1 September 1939, a formation of around 90 He 111s from KG 27 escorted by 36 Bf 109s of I./JG 21 flew against Warsaw. Near Modlin they were intercepted by (according to the German report) 20 - 30 PZL P.24s. In the ensuing combat, no German bombers were lost, while the P.24s and the Bf 109s clashed. I./JG 21 claimed to have shot down 5 P.24s, but in return 13 of I./JG 21's aircraft failed to return to base after that combat. Some of these Bf 109s made belly-landings after their pilots had lost the navigation, but several also were shot down by the Polish pilots. I wonder if anyone knows which the successful Polish fighter unit was? How did the Polish unit report that combat?

All best,

Christer Bergström
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 26th December 2004, 18:20
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 2,141
Franek Grabowski
Re: Polish pilopts 1 September 1939

Germans clashed with Brygada Pościgowa (111, 112, 113, 114 & 123 Eskadry Mysliwskie) plus 152 Eskadra Mysliwska. They were ecquipped with P11c, P.11a and P.7 fighters. Me 110s were involved as well and it seems they were responsible for attacks on bailing out Polish airmen. It is believed claims for 2 He 111, 1 Do 17, 6 Me 109 and 1 Ju 87 should have been filled.
PS Checked briefly Bob's claims - it seems only one claim seems almost certain. All the others seem not possible to verify with the current knowledge.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 2nd March 2011, 16:40
PZLvsME109 PZLvsME109 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3
PZLvsME109 is on a distinguished road
Re: Polish pilopts 1 September 1939

Can I have sources for the original poster's claim? Thank you!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 4th March 2011, 11:26
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 816
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Polish pilots 1 September 1939

Most answers, almost 100%, for this quetion you may find in very deep reserach done 6 years ago by M. Emmerling, "Brygada Pościgowa kontra Luftwaffe" in 2005, in Militaria XX wieku.

Polish P.11s had destroyed (100 % damage) according his research 2 Me 109Ds (1. + 2./ JG 21). Polish victors were were from 113. Eskadra Mysliwska (Radomski and Borowski) from Brygada Pościgowa of course.

Total losses were 6 Me 109 D (100% losses), but only 2 due to the combat (it is sure), rest by the lack of fuel and lost orientation or could be also by some, small damages sustained during the combat.

I have not seen yet something better resarched about this topic.

Marek Murawski had done his nice material about "Bf 109 C/D w kampanii wrzesniowej 1939 roku" in 2009 by Kagero, and there are some new data to Emmerling story, he also use Emmerling's researach too.

Regards,
Mirosław Wawrzyński

PS

Color of one of this Me 109 D, which was involved in this combat and later landed in Lithuania plus story about capture the other two by Polses you may find in my and Jacek Jackiewcz Publication "Captured Me 109s", from 2007: yellow 8 W.Nr 2436 of 3./JG 21. Behrens's plane (he was from 1./JG 21, POW) was captured intact by soldiers of I Platoon of 13. Observation Flight, near Lomża.
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 4th March 2011, 11:49
VoyTech VoyTech is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 198
VoyTech is on a distinguished road
Re: Polish pilots 1 September 1939

Mr Emmerling's research may well be very deep, but it is not always reliable, really. This kind of logic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek Wawrzynski View Post
only 2 due to the combat (it is sure), rest [...] could be also by some, small damages sustained during the combat.
is rather frequent in his work. Sadly, it is often repeated without thinking by his readers.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 4th March 2011, 16:11
Mirek Wawrzynski Mirek Wawrzynski is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 816
Mirek Wawrzynski is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Polish pilopts 1 September 1939

Quote:
Sadly, it is often repeated without thinking by his readers.
1. How does this relate to things?
2. Which makes sense, such talk?

Being dissatisfied always easy, instead of complaining, do something yourself, then see what you can.

It is very convenient to hide behind the nickname. What he published a real-world under his real name, that you're so sharp in the courts?

Regards,
mirekw
__________________
Mirek Wawrzyński
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Small explanation to the Polish nationalists about Polish inter-war paradise! Obst. Zerstorer The Second World War in General 2 21st September 2005 19:22
1th October 1938: Joint Polish-Nazi Germany aggression against Czechoslovakia Obst. Zerstorer The Second World War in General 5 19th September 2005 22:11
Polish Army Co-op a/c losses in autumn 1939? Juha Allied and Soviet Air Forces 4 28th June 2005 20:40
65 anniversary of Katyn massacre Franek Grabowski The Second World War in General 16 25th April 2005 19:23
Stuka in Aeroplane II/05. Nice Story and Plenty Errors! Mirek Wawrzynski Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 11 27th January 2005 19:15


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net